Some guidance needed for ECY 20 Bugcounty

I can't recall this issue specifically coming up in @OldSock's book (which I highly recommend given your apparent interest in sour/funky beer), but my sense is that you do not generally need to augment the microbes in a solera.

That said, I don't know if half a vial is enough for the fermentation of the first 10.5 gallons. My guess is no. And I don't know what the right approach when using a mixed blend of microbes - I have heard that doing a starter can get the ratio of microbes out of its proper range (I believe bacteria sometimes multiply considerably faster than yeast, though I don't know if that's true of pediococcus). This, I think, is the concern with your plan, and I wouldn't worry about re-upping the microbes once you have a successful solera going.

 

My thinking is the bugs should be able to re-propagate into the fresh wort as it is introduced. That said, the characteristics may change over time, as not everything works at the same speed at a given temperature, and the balance may shift over time.

I believe the ECY vials are for a 5 gallon batch. I would recommend using the whole thing for starting the barrel off right, at a minimum.

 

I see. In what sense will the saison be 50% fermented with this other yeast? Do you mean that you are going to ferment half the wort with the Omega yeast, or that you will pitch approximately equal amounts of the Omega yeast and the ECY20?

 

Got you. I'm unfamiliar with this method and I don't know how to think about it. On one hand, yes, the fermentation is ~50% done when the ECY20 hits the beer. On the other hand, the ECY20 is being pitched into a less-hospitable environment than if it were pitched up front (minimal oxygen, less food, more alcohol, probably lower pH), and there is still a lot of work to do. So I don't know whether to think about this as a possibly insufficient primary pitch, or a probably sufficient secondary pitch. I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts. I would certainly think you would need to give these microbes plenty of time to do their thing - lots of brett strains in there, and pediococcus is pretty slow I am led to believe.

 

I don't mean to scare you - I just don't know, myself, what the right approach is here. I hope people with more experience weigh in.

 

It might be worth a read through the solara blog posts from @OldSock, It seems he's been back and forth on worrying about autolysis in his soleras, but I think his most recent top offs have been with already fermented wort racked off of the trub. I'm interested in the topic as well and currently deciding between starting a Gueuze like solera or racking to multiple secondary vessels to blend later more like a real gueuze.

 

Those @OldSock posts are here and here, by the way.

 

Pitch the whole thing. Barrel it and keep up with it. Pull what you want and rack fresh wort into it. Eventually the sacch strain might be dead it struggle so use less attenuative yeast to help it along might be needed but not necessary.

 

Lots of great answers already. Whether to ferment out the refills really comes down to how long you go between pulls and how sour the beer is. Same goes for the bugs, if you are missing some particular aspect of the flavor, add microbes to assist.

 

Sorry to hijack the topic a bit, I'm currently trying to decide how best to manage a long term gueuze like blending plan and have many of the same questions. Currently I'm aging a 6 gallon batch in a better bottle and it seems to me there are 3 real options.

1. Pull an amount(say 2 gallons) annually replacing with fresh wort or fermented beer, depending on autolysis concerns, essentially a gueuze like beer using the solera method.
2. Pull enough to blend to taste following the Pyle's method without topping off or racking to a smaller fermenter.
3. Rack to multiple fermenters to minimize headspace while allowing for blending(something like rack 3 gallons to a 3 gallon fermentor, one gallon to a glass jug and use 2 gallons for blending).

I'm not sure where the breaking point is where autolysis is a larger concern than the flavor contributions of brett breaking down yeast. @OldSock, did you ever get an answer as to when the Pyles retire a barrel if ever and if their 4+ year old lambic ever gets tossed?

I do worry that a better bottle when only partially full, with proportionally more surface area to beer would generate significantly more acetic acid than the head space in the Pyle's barrel program.

I also wonder about messing with moving these around and if it would be helpful or negative to add some trub to each smaller fermentor to mimic the normal lambic process.

 

They often use the older lambics for their Gueuze-mosa (blended with orange juice in the keg). I don't think they've fully retired a barrel other than the one that leaked

Barrels are porous, especially when partially filled. That's a much bigger issue than some extra head space in a carboy.

Aging in smaller fermentors could make the process easier, but doesn't seem necessary to me.

 

Thanks,

I will likely follow the Pyle method on a smaller scale then to keep as much flexibility as possible, although I'm sure my blending skills have a long way to go as well.

 

Only one way to get better, and that's by doing!