Whippersnappers (Old Man Rant)

I wouldn't say well established as that's your opinion because you want the comments and comment yourself on threads, others have said the opposite including myself. Or for that matter, peeps haven't commented in this thread with their thoughts, so its hard to say what "most" people on this site really prefer. I wouldnt have any problems with the comments if they were limited to bottle count, brewery release, one-off, shelf, etc. Things that are facts and helpful and can't be swayed by people. Comments of homers protecting their beers, devaluing beers, saying your off because I did that, etc are comments that no one needs.

 

Following up on what @Beer4B had suggested earlier, I wonder if this could work:

Instead of selecting from a database which beers were on which side, add an additional box text box with each trade feedback in which each person in the trade can optionally describe the focus of the trade. Add this text to a searchable database. If someone wants to figure out the value of prop, they could search "prop" and find all instances of completed trades in which prop was involved. It's open ended enough that each of the problems I listed (trading homebrew, mead, bourbon, wanting the details kept secret etc), but would still be a huge help for people looking to establish value.

I don't know. Just a thought.

You're right that I'm talking about my opinion, but it still feels like it will be difficult to make everyone happy here. More aggressive moderation of the comments we all agree are awful (homerism, manipulation, etc) seems like the only possible thing everyone could agree upon.

 

Definitely, it just seems to me like that's the only technologically-possible change that's been proposed.

 

To expand on this, perhaps add an 'auto complete' to the database, so that "prop" isn't confused for '13 vs '14; KH isn't confused for King Henry vs Kiwi Herman, etc. I'm sure this is even more work on the back end required than the original suggestion, but just an idea.

edit: With that said, manipulation of this could be even more damaging (homerism etc) than comments currently are, and pretty hard to prove. Still not an easy call to make, but if it's going to get done, it should get done as well as possible.

 

So it seems most pro comment people continue to bring up the argument of how helpful the comments are due to bottle count, price, etc. I understand how that is definitely helpful but a lot of people use that to threadshit under the disguise of being helpful. For example, I'm ISO:xyz beer and someone else comes along who has that beer and chimes in that I'll have a hard time getting that bottle because there were only 200 bottles released compared to the 800 of the beer I'm offering. Or "that bottle was a lottery only release and yours hit a small amount of distribution". Helpful? In some cases but as I said it's also used to influence a trade. PM always works as well.

People commenting on what they traded to get a beer can be handled pm. Personally I don't find that information too helpful because it varies so much from person to person, day to day, flavor of the week, etc. Again, it's often used to influence a trade.

The best I can come up with is probably out of the question but a centralized location (under the availability on beer profile page or beer release section) to find bottle numbers, price, release info, etc. This would obviously be more work on someone but it would put a stop to people commenting in the ISO's whether they're being helpful or not.

I don't think it would have to be extremely detailed but it would be pretty badass if I wanted to trade for MBCP so I look up the ratings and at the top it says 2014: ~8,000 bottles released at brewery, 4 per, $15 each. Or Dark Lord 2015: 16,000 bottles, brewery only release, 4 pp, $15 each.

All of that information is already out there on BA, people just don't search for it because they're too lazy. I've been guilty.

 

Agree with everything 100%. I also don't understand peoples ability or lack thereof to BM the person directly

 

I think there is a lot of complication going on on this thread. What is the real problem? People don't know value? People are trying to get as much win as possible for their walez? OP's original point was that he felt that newbies were assholes; but I've usually found worse behavior with more "established" people.

Why don't we just add a Completed Trades forum instead of having those discussions in the Beer Trading Talk & Help forum? There are some people who are much more concerned about holding on to the "value" of the bottles in their cellar and don't mind threadshitting to do so. Adding some fields on each beer's profile where you can put year, bottle count, price and if it was brewery only would be useful too.

For me, my bigger concern is that BeerAdvocate trade forums are slowly becoming BeerCollectorAdvocate trade forums. There are a lot of people who have stared for way too long into the collecting abyss and are obsessed with the "worth" of their cellar. Maybe it's just a natural split between the hardcore and the casuals. There's a good blend of people now, why mess with what is working?

 

Enough people have put forward the "you can just BM people" argument, that I'm going to have to voice a contrary opinion. Personally, I would consider someone BMing me to give me their unsolicited opinion about whether a trade will get done even ruder than commenting on my post. At least a person who repeatedly threadshits in public will end up on people's "do not trade" / ignore lists or pick up a time-out from the mods. A person doing the same sort of thing via BMs is an invisible asshole which, in my opinion, is even worse for the community.

Particularly with new traders, ISOs are often ill-formed or leave out salient information (vintage, bottle size, whether a list is a set of 1:1 possibilities or 1:n, etc). It's quite reasonable to ask the poster for more details in public, and more efficient than multiple potentially interested parties having to send messages.

 

I agree that giving helpful info to someone in a thread is better than in a BM for the simple fact the more people see that useful into. If you bm the OP he might tell you to f off (or ignore it completely) but if you comment on the ISO:FT with bottle count, limit per, last release date, ect. there is a high likely hood that someone else will see it and use that relevant information when they construct an ISO of their own.

 

I'll agree to disagree. If your only option was to BM a person (for whatever reason(s) )more than likely you'll either come across with an honest, credible reply because you have no one to "hide" behind. There's nothing personal to "gain" by BMing the person besides being a BeerAdvocate.

 

this thread went from "why are so many new traders d-bags" to the best ways to "communicate the value of beer." Odd.

 

I believe the bridge between the two was "Let's get rid of commenting on the trading forums so new traders don't get a chance to be d-bags publicly."

 

We also have been primarily focused on the comments in FT/ISO threads and not discussed as thoroughly the value threads in the Help section issue. Maybe we just split the baby and allow one or the other? Outlaw FT/ISO comments, requiring someone with a question to first post it in the Help section, or outlaw value threads, forcing folks to just ask them in particular FT/ISO threads?

 

Yup. I don't want to start a fight here so this isn't directed at any particular person and it's a rhetorical question but how would some of you feel if I looked at all of your ISO's and posted every statistic of the beer you're trading and the beer(s) you're looking for in your ISO? After all I'm just being helpful so everyone can see it, right? Or would you rather I pm you that information? I promise a lot of people who are on favor of comments wouldn't like it one bit because the numbers and prices would have the appearance of their trade not looking so favorable for them and possibly turn other interested parties away.

Personally I don't mind a pm. A kind FL trader pm'ed me the other day telling me what I was offering was generous and why. Even if it was the other way around I wouldn't be offended. If he had posted it publicly what good would that have done? Let everyone know his opinion and possibly change theirs? Start a shit show in my ISO?

Would I get BA of the year or troll of the year if I posted statistics in every ISO followed by "good luck"? I know that's the mods job to figure out but if I don't post my opinion and post facts only then I guess I'm just being helpful.

 

Absolutely nothing, as people still could use this as an avenue to "protect" or "devalue" beers, but it would at least give a "reference" to use at your own discretion.

 

While I don't necessarily disagree with the bolded portion, suggesting that the way to handle it through pm and getting rid of comments leaves the sheep at the mercy of the wolves, and creates an every man for themselves environment. If the comments aren't in the open, how can TRULY helpful information assist the less knowledgable traders out there?

Point is, it's not black and white not all comments are good, nor are they bad.

And not every comment that someone disagrees with is threadshitting for that matter.

Sometimes people are stating or claiming things that are patently untrue. Times have been where I've made a post correcting the info and had it removed.

Honestly don't know what the answer is, because it's clear that people will attempt to manipulate trade values whatever you do, so long as commnents are allowed.

 

I agree with a lot of your points and they're valid. I'd prefer not to have comments but I'm only 70/30. I can live with them or with out. I'm more or less playing devils advocate because I'm more anti comment and regardless what anyone wants or doesn't want I think it's healthy to have these arguments/debates in order to try and come up with a better system if that's possible. IMO, it's important to hear and see both sides. I've said it before, I may not like someone's opinion but I respect it.

I'm not so sure as many people would be taken advantage of as some may think. I mean first of all what does taken advantage of mean and how do we prevent it? Does it mean a new trader traded a more desirable beer for something less desirable? Does it mean we should have told the new trader to try and get more for his bottle because he's not winning enough? If new traders took the time to do a little research the info is all out there and it's not all in ISO's. We could also send a pm.

I also doubt new traders are picking up brewery only releases and/or highly limited beers that they wouldn't have some idea of what they're doing. Not you but I think there are plenty of people who are "concerned" about keeping comments open in ISO's to "protect" new traders but these are the same people that are trying to take advantage of and maximize every last ounce of limited beer they have by posting comments. A wolf in sheeps clothing if you will.