First Stone Enjoy By Experience (2.14.15)

Flavor perception is based to very large degree on smell. Have you never in your life smelled a petroleum product (e.g., gasoline, diesel, etc.)?

When a BA states that a certain beer has a flavor of cat pee, do you make a post asking if that person has tasted cat pee?

 

I don't consider myself to have the greatest palette of all time, but count me in as someone who has noticed significant variation between releases. And I'm getting it at stores that get it immediately and keep refrigerated etc. I can't remember dates off the top of my head but some have been much more oniony than others, some have had more citrus etc... One in particular (don't remrmber the date - I'm not that anal nor a ticker) I flat out did not care for.

I think if anything, like others have said, it shows how much variation can and does exist between batches of this type of beer.

 

What was the name of the store and city it's in? We can make sure it's taken care of.

 

I agree and nobody (including myself) is arguing there can't be "perceived" variations from batch to batch. I and many others are just saying it is probably due to external factors, not the recipe itself. If Greg Koch @StoneGreg and Mitch Steele swear the recipe has not changed in the last year, then I tend to believe them over everyone else's ever changing palette. What incentive do they have to lie? Enjoy By is selling regardless and getting rave reviews. I have loved every batch of it and look forward to the 4/20/15 batch in 12 oz. bottles.

 

I am not aware that anybody is explicitly stating that the recipe for Enjoy By has changed in the past year. What folks are reporting is that despite the consistency in the recipe for the past year that the Enjoy By flavor profile does indeed vary from release to release.

There are variables in brewing and it is apparent in the different releases of Enjoy By.

Cheers!

 

As someone who absolutely detects taste variances between batches (and particularly loves the 2/14 batch), I keep wondering: why does anyone care that I do or don't?

 

Since I also perceive flavor profile differences from the different releases of Enjoy By I am not be the best person to address why does anyone care that I do or don't?

It seems that since the “recipe doesn’t change” then some BAs equate that to meaning that each release will have the same flavor profile. If you (or me) report that there is indeed a quite noticeable difference in the flavor profile from release to release then we are having some sort of ‘issue’. For example:

· You (and me) are suffering a “mind over matter” transfiguration

· You (and me) are suffering a ‘screw-up' of palate from something we ate previously

· You (and me) are suffering …

Well, you get the idea?

Cheers!

 

I've tried to make this simple analogy before: if I bake a cake twice, using the exact same recipe, I can guarantee you it's going to taste different each time, due to countless non-recipe-related variables. Why is this so hard (not for you, Jack) to understand?

 

I've done Enjoy By, Ruination and Sucks together in one night, not necessarily to taste against one another. The Ruination for me kills your palate, which I knew it would, so I did it last. Sucks is probably my favorite of the three.

 

Enjoy By is really good in every batch I have tried. In fact, it is as good as any of the Pliny series in my opinion, it just doesn't get the hype because it is widely available, but as far as a great IIPA that you can find everywhere I haven't found an equal. The best thing as of late is that it will be out in 6 packs for the release next month...and that their will be a black version, hopefully also in 6 packs.

 

I don't think I'd categorize my interest in this topic as caring whether or not someone perceives a difference in the taste of Enjoy By (or any other beer) from batch to batch. Beer (really anything related to personal taste/perception) is a personal experience--it's different for each person. I don't presume to tell you what you do or don't taste when you drink a given beer.

But what does interest me about the topic is the way Enjoy By is talked about varying from batch to batch in a way that the vast majority of other beers--even in the same category--are not talked about changing from batch to batch. When was the last time you saw a debate over the variance in taste between batches of Heady Topper? Pliny The Elder? Lagunitas Sucks? DirtWolf? Double Jack?

I'm not denying that there may be subtle differences in the outcome of the brewing process, but given the ability an operation the size of Stone has to make their process consistent (ultimately, it's no different than any other manufacturing process), I believe that any subtle differences that can be attributed to the beer itself come from changes in the raw ingredients, due to terroir or what have you, rather than some undefined "changes" in the brewing process.

It's interesting that the analogy of baking a cake was brought up, because when it comes to producing food products, baking is about as precision-oriented a pursuit as you can have. Unlike regular cooking, where improvisation and adjustments on the fly are a key part of doing it well, baking is entirely subject to executing a precisely-defined recipe with as little variance as possible. In this respect, baking actually resembles the industrial brewing process, where companies with large distribution footprints and high volume production schedules can't afford their product to vary significantly from batch to batch or else they run the risk of consumers not buying their product for fear of not knowing what to expect. If you bake two cakes and use the exact same recipe and equipment for both, and don't make any mistakes in your measurements or following the process exactly, your two cakes *shouldn't* taste significantly different.

And to this point:

With the funny nature of perception, and the unavoidable passage of time between opportunities to sample Enjoy By, I simply think that the far more likely culprit for those changes in perception lie with the drinker than with the small changes in the chemistry of the raw ingredients due to conditions for growth, storage, etc.

It's not to suggest that people who perceive differences are succumbing to "mind over matter" or experiencing a "palate screw up" or any other such terms that could be interpreted as dismissive or possibly even insulting. It's simply about acknowledging the way that human perception works. It's not a caliper.

 

“It's simply about acknowledging that human perception is an interesting phenomenon.”

Yes, sensory perception is indeed an “interesting phenomenon”. Each human being has their own unique palate and their own unique abilities. That is true under all conditions.

Cheers!

 

I feel like you are missing my point. When I say human perception is not a caliper, I mean to suggest that it doesn't replicate the exact same ability to measure with the same degree of precision from experience to experience.

 

I stated “…their own unique abilities”.

I have no idea how well your “caliper” operates but I have very good knowledge of my palate and my abilities.

Cheers!

 

Jack, please allow me to clarify.

When I said, "This isn't a bad thing," that was a clumsy and ineffective way of trying to remove the negative connotations that can be associated with "mind over matter." I was not implying that this involves suffering or having an issue. I believe that mind over matter is something that is always present to a certain extent. This website can be a temple to the idea that tasting a beer can be pinned down and absolute. I don't totally buy into this. Your frequent comments regarding unique palates leads me to believe that you would agree to a certain extent. Personally, I believe context is always a factor. Impressions can be fluid (pun intended), but that doesn't mean dishonest. Perhaps you feel that I am claiming that you are tasting something that isn't there. I am not. I respect your approach to beer and am not attempting to discredit your impressions at all. I simply do not think one can claim that there is absolutely no relationship between the level of chatter about favorite batches and the fact that the beer has a different label with each release. I believe these are related. Perhaps I just put more weight on this than you. That's cool. The following is not a rhetorical question: Do you have any opinions on the effectiveness of Stone's quality control department?

 

I have zero knowledge/experience concerning Stone Brewing’s QA/QC program and consequently I have no inclination to opine on that matter.

I will state for the record that I have never made mention that the variability of Best By beers from release to release was a quality control topic.

Cheers!

 

The caliper is an analogy, it has nothing to do with your or my unique abilities. The point is that a caliper's function is to measure and nothing more. That function depends, not only on being able to reproduce the same data over multiple measurements of the same object, but also on the fact that it simply measures raw data--there is no interpretation.

The human palate is fundamentally different in that it intakes and interprets raw data in one fluid action. Unless your palate works in a way that is fundamentally different than mine, you don't drink a beer and receive raw data like the ppm of chemical compounds contained therein, pH levels, IBUs, etc. You take a drink and get impressions--as evidenced by your earlier mention of the 2-14-15 batch tasting like petroleum. I think we can both agree that Enjoy By contains no petroleum, and I don't think the fact that you perceived petroleum means that there is anything wrong with your palate. To the contrary, I would bet you have a very keen palate based on the many things I've seen you post on this site about beer. Per @zid's point, I'm not suggesting that you (or anyone else who perceives a difference from batch to batch in Enjoy By) are being dishonest or fooling yourself into tasting something that's not there.

But no matter how keen one's palate is, the interpretive element of taste simply cannot be removed. And with interpretation comes variance. Honestly, that's part of the beauty of our perception of taste--the way we get cues from things like chocolate and coffee, grapefruit and pine--things that aren't actually used in the beers from which we perceive them.

 

“And with interpretation comes variance.”

And there is “variance” from individual to individual.

Cheers!

 

Absolutely, no question.

 

I love the Enjoy By series as well. But between the two, Enjoy By on tap is way better than Ruination on tap. that's just my opinion though. Nevertheless, great go to beers.