Water profile for BCBS inspired beer using RO water

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by kingjohnh, Feb 20, 2015.

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  1. kingjohnh

    kingjohnh Maven (1,322) Nov 3, 2009 New Mexico
    Trader

    Hey all,

    Brewed this beer a few years ago as a BCBS clone and while I'd say it's a great beer, not exactly BCBS like. Anyway, I'm brewing it again for the first time since I've been experimenting with RO water and was looking for some input on the water profile. Here's the grain bill to get 5 1/2 gallons into the primary:

    22# 2 row
    2 1/4 # Crystal 120
    2 1/4 # Crystal 80
    1 3/4 Carafa II
    3 1/2 # Munich
    2 # Chocolate malt
    2 # Black Malt
    1# oats

    Using 1056 yeast that is built into a massive starter and 3 oz styrian goldings for 60 min and a total 90 min boil.

    I'd rather not get into why or why not this is BCBS like or not, but some help with the water profile would be greatly appreciated and as I put in the title, I'll be using RO.

    Thanks!

    John
     
  2. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Savant (1,135) Dec 3, 2005 Louisiana

    Download and plug in the recipe in BrewCipher 3.5 and adjust water using water tab.
     
  3. OldSock

    OldSock Maven (1,418) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    At least 50 PPM calcium, favor chloride over sulfate, add enough carbonate to keep the pH towards the high end of the mash range. Some sodium from baking soda would be fine. You can add 10 PPM magnesium if you want.

    With bigger/darker beers the main point is to prevent the final pH from falling too close to 4.0, where they take on an acridness I find unpleasant. Exactly how you treat the water depends on your water-to-grain ratio, how dark your specific malts are etc. making it impossible to just give you a perfect profile.

    Since I switched to no-sparge, I've found I don't need to treat my water for moderate gravity stouts because there is so much more of it to buffer the dark malts (conversely it takes much more treatment for pale beers because I'm essentially adding the acid that would have gone into the mash and sparge).
     
  4. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    Assuming you are going to use 13 gals for mashing and 20 for sparging of RO water I would add these salts :

    Mash :

    CaSO 4 grams, CaCL 6 grams, MgSO 1 gram, Baking Soda 3 grams, Chalk 2 grams

    Sparge :

    All the above items x 1.5

    This way you will end up with (aprox. obviously):

    75 calcium , 5 magnesium, 25 sodium, 65 chloride, 60 sulfate, Effective Alkalinity 64, Residual Alkalinity 11, Mash Ph 5.40
     
  5. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    Conventional wisdom is not to add any baking soda or chalk to sparge water, because you want the pH of the sparge water to be low enough to avoid extracting tannins from the grain. Also, chalk is not very soluble and it probably doesn't achieve much to use it in sparge water.
     
    OldSock likes this.
  6. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    Also, wait a minute, why are you assuming 13 gallons for mashing and 20 gallons for sparging? That would require quite a bit of boiling to get down to 5.5 gallons in the fermenter.
     
  7. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    IMO, that profile looks pretty low in Chlorides for general use in stouts, from a flavor perspective.
     
  9. kingjohnh

    kingjohnh Maven (1,322) Nov 3, 2009 New Mexico
    Trader

    Thanks for the replies so far. I'm still working on the final details, but probably mashing in with 9 gallons of RO and batch sparging with 4 1/2 gallons of RO. I wasn't planning on adding baking soda or chalk to the sparge. VikeMan, thoughts about how much chloride. I'm aware of all the various software out there to help with calculations, but I was hoping someone had tweaked a calculator and recently came up with an RO water profile for mash and sparge that went well with this style and they would share. I'm looking for a water profile to accentuate the sweet malts.
     
  10. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Okay, your grain bill from the OP, with 9 gallons of RO/Distilled Mash water (which BTW is going to be pretty thick) is going to land your mash pH pretty low. If I were brewing this recipe, I would probably add 4 g of pickling lime (Ca(OH)2)) to the mash to bring the pH up into the 5.4 range (estimated). No Gypsum or Calcium Chloride in the mash, as they would work to undo your pH adjustment. But you still need some Cl and SO4 for flavor, and some more calcium for yeast flocculation would be good, so I would add approx... 6 g CaCl2, 4 g CaSO4, and 2 g NaCl ... to the kettle. (Not to the 4.5 gallons RO/distilled sparge water itself before sparging.) This would bring your total ion concentrations (PPM) to about...

    Ca: 93
    Mg: 0
    Na: 15
    Cl: 80
    SO4: 44
    HCO3 (equiv): 129

    Note that you got some of your Cl (for flavor) from NaCl, so the Sodium (Na) also enhances flavor a little. Also note: If you want some Mg (I almost never do), you can substitute some MgCl2 for some of the CaCl. (You have Calcium to spare, from a yeast perspective.)

    ETA: I have never had BCBS, so I have no idea about how the above would help (or not) to get you there.
     
  11. kingjohnh

    kingjohnh Maven (1,322) Nov 3, 2009 New Mexico
    Trader

    Thanks for your detailed response. Any ideas about where to get pickling lime/calcium hydroxide? Local homebrew store doesn't carry it.
     
  12. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    If you're lucky, maybe the canning section of a grocery store. Otherwise, online. Amazon has it. It goes by a few names... Calcium Hydroxide, pickling lime, slaked lime, even "cal" I think.
     
  13. kingjohnh

    kingjohnh Maven (1,322) Nov 3, 2009 New Mexico
    Trader

    I tried one grocery store. I'll try a few others. I saw it on Amazon, but was hoping to brew Sat.
     
  14. kingjohnh

    kingjohnh Maven (1,322) Nov 3, 2009 New Mexico
    Trader

    Holy shit. Walmart has it. Wife will kill me for shopping there, but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do!
     
  15. sarcastro

    sarcastro Savant (1,133) Sep 20, 2006 Michigan

  16. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Martin Brungard had a good article Zymurgy that showed they probably use less alkaline water to brew stouts in Dublin.

    Most brewing city water profiles are probably not what the brewer uses.
     
  17. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin


    I'm aware brewers modify their water. I've used the Dublin water profile in big stouts and it produced good results. Using more chloride and less bicarbonate should also produce a good result.
     
  18. Naugled

    Naugled Pooh-Bah (1,944) Sep 25, 2007 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Most places that sell canning supplies will have it. I see it in many but not all grocery stores, hardware stores, walmart, kmart, etc.
     
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