Reverse engineering water profile via Ward Labs

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by blumpkin, Mar 5, 2015.

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  1. blumpkin

    blumpkin Initiate (0) Mar 5, 2015 District of Columbia

    The situation:

    I am curious about the brewing water profile of a particular commercial beer. Does anyone have any insight into reverse engineering by sending a sample Of the finished product to Ward Labs and moving backwards?

    Since the beer is only 20-30 IBU, I know the yeast strain, and the grainbill is relatively simple (Pilsner, a little cara, and some wheat) I figure it will be easy to just take Ward's numbers and subtract the mineral additions from the ingredients. This would result in the brewing water specs right?

    Any information on what malt, yeast, and hops contribute to the mineral makeup of a beer would be appreciated.

    Thanks
     
  2. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I figure this will be impossible. But if you're serious, good luck. If you're winding us up (in your very first forum post), you should have waited for April 1st.
     
  3. blumpkin

    blumpkin Initiate (0) Mar 5, 2015 District of Columbia

    Nope. Very serious. We can calculate what malt adds to a beer right? Then why can't we just subtract that from the finished beer's Ward report?
     
  4. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Do you have information on the quantities of brewing ions that exist as salts in each grain/malt type? And how much of that content will be dissolved under the brewery's mash conditions? How about the qtys that don't exist as salts, but may (or may not) be broken down/recombined into a dissolvable compound in the mash, or in the boil, or during fermentation? Or the ions that will be used by and retained by the yeast?

    But if you think you know how to do this, I'd suggest starting with a known water profile, brewing a beer with it, and using your logic to predict the final beer's ion content. Then have that beer analyzed to see how close it is to the prediction. My gut says this is much harder than you think.
     
  5. blumpkin

    blumpkin Initiate (0) Mar 5, 2015 District of Columbia

    Oh I was definitely over simplifying it.

    What I'm going to do is have the commercial beer tested. Then I am going to build a profile based on my hunches and brew that. I will have mine tested and then tweak accordingly. Thoughts?
     
  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I just gotta ask/comment: maybe if you contact the commercial brewery they would provide the water profile details?

    It is worth asking. The worse that could happen is that they won't provide the requested information.

    Cheers!
     
  7. blumpkin

    blumpkin Initiate (0) Mar 5, 2015 District of Columbia

    Unfortunately this brewery is very tight lipped on anything surrounding process, technique, or recipe.
     
  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Yup, unfortunate is the 'word'.

    I am going to go out on a limb here: is the brewery Hill Farmstead?

    Cheers!
     
  9. blumpkin

    blumpkin Initiate (0) Mar 5, 2015 District of Columbia

    What would ever make you think someone wanted to learn more about Hill Farmstead's water profile? :wink:
     
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I take that as a yes!

    I am the Amazing Karnak!!:grinning:

    Cheers!
     
  11. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Or Captain Obvious.

    I'm pretty much convinced that the reason Shaun protects his source water profile has little to do with fear of cloning and everything to do with preserving the mystique of his brand. Great beer though. I'll give him that.
     
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  12. blumpkin

    blumpkin Initiate (0) Mar 5, 2015 District of Columbia

    I 100% agree with you. That being said- I think the water plays a huge role in his beer. I'd like some insight.
     
  13. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    research the well data at Hill Farmstead. I can't say for sure if VT has this data posted but many states require a well log whenever a well is drilled. you want to know the depth of the screened section of the well or if it is open hole in rock.

    then you contact your friendly state geologist and ask for some data about the area, specifically the aquifer data. then you find a similar well in the area that has been studied, USGS does this all over America, and there you have the water profile. the USGS analysis is public, and they can't tell you who specifically own the well, but they will give you analysis of area wells, and a map to go with it too if you are fortunate.

    it will take some leg work. and you won't know if the brewery treats the water.

    Cheers.

    hell, just grab a sample from the bathroom sink. ask a brewer if they teat the water. they give tours right? look for any water treatment equipment. send it to ward. done.
     
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  14. blumpkin

    blumpkin Initiate (0) Mar 5, 2015 District of Columbia

    Shaun treats his water. Specifically with Calcium Sulfate (gypsum) to reach moderately high sulfate levels. He also does other treatments I'm unaware of. He also uses liquid acid to lower his pH.

    I'm not interested in mirroring his water. Just gaining insight into what he does so I can apply and adapt to my beers.

    Good idea though!
     
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  15. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    Last time I was at HF, I saw a couple Unicorns peeing on the land above the well which contains the magic well water. This must be the secret ingredient!
     
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  16. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    You get a relatively high amount of some ions from the grist. There is a table in Water by Palmer.
     
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