Is brewing an art or a science?

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by lordofthemark, Mar 6, 2015.

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  1. Fly_Moe

    Fly_Moe Initiate (0) May 22, 2012 Florida

    Definitely magic or witch craft.
     
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  2. atrocity

    atrocity Pooh-Bah (2,264) Dec 18, 2013 Virginia
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Agreed. A bit of both in my mind.
     
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  3. lordofthemark

    lordofthemark Initiate (0) Jan 28, 2015 Virginia

    This is more or less what I was asking. I don't think there is any question that developing the original recipe is art (if art informed by science) But the strong impression given on that other thread, is that with sufficient resources, an art free brewer, with top notch engineers and food scientists, can replicate any beer. Ergo, no real "art" involved after the recipe is present. Which is definitely not the case with wine. I have never brewed beer, and cannot speak to the extent to which beer is truely a living thing (despite the yeast) and adjustments need to be made on the fly, not merely to insure quality, but to create a vision on the fly.

    I suspect this has some impact on scalability, but I am not sure what.
     
  4. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    When I was homebrewing, I approached brewing from a more artsy standpoint and I used science to make sure that the beer was high quality. As a professional brewer, I definitely approach brewing from a much more scientific standpoint and I use the artsy lessons that I learned as a homebrewer to apply to a crafty recipe development. I would say at this point as a professional brewer, brewing is 85% science and 15% art.
     
  5. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    Most of those adjustments can be done using Malt/Hops Analysis. I check COA's on every lot of malts I recieve and if I see a difference, I make changes as needed.
     
  6. bluehende

    bluehende Initiate (0) Dec 10, 2010 Delaware

  7. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    At what pitching rate will you have the most desirable fermentation profile? How about aeration? Which sugars are fermentable to your chosen strain? Is there enough soluble nitrogen for the yeast? If not, is your malt suitable for a protein rest? If you do so, will there be enough high molecular nitrogen for head retention? At what level of calcium should you have in your mash in order to prevent calcium oxylate from developing in your kegs? How much calcium do you need to ensure your yeast will flocculate at consistent rates? How do you harvest your yeast?

    There are approximately 1,000 compounds that are produced in every glass of beer that contribute to flavor. About 900 of those come from fermentation.
     
  8. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Question (Curious): After you've done your calculations/analysis and made those changes, do you then do a final taste test of the beer before giving your stamp of approval? And throughout the process of getting to the final product, how often do you use the zwickle to get a sample for evaluation along the way to the final product?
     
  9. darkandhoppy

    darkandhoppy Savant (1,099) Dec 26, 2008 Connecticut

    okay, I concede. My point was mostly that fermentation occurs in the wild all day, every day. I guess my thought that steering the fermentation was artistic isnt going to hold true.
     
  10. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    Science can get you very far in this area, but even still, there is always some trial and error. A Goose Island employee told me that they retained final say in what beers were accepted from AB during the first batches. Bottles were shipped overnight back to Goose Island and if the story is to be believed, Goose rejected the first 12,000 bbl produced of Honker's Ale and it was dumped.

    I'm sure AB could get out a gas chromatograph or a HPLC and dial in a beer recipe using that info, but at the end of the day, you still need to rely on what your senses tell you.
     
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  11. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    We do taste every batch of beer. Every day, I pull samples and taste along the way. I taste the wort, I taste the malts, I smell the hops, etc. when the beer is complete, I typically have a 2-4 oz. pour. If I think something may be wrong, I'll call in our 12 member tasting panel and do a triangle test. If it passes the tasting panel, the beer goes out. Our tasting panel is still pretty new to us, but we have been reaping the benefits of training them for about 6 months now and the results are evident in our ratings on this site and in sales. We don't have much fancy lab equipment, just a microscope and some other basic tools, but we also send our beers for analysis at a local university on occasion.
     
  12. charlzm

    charlzm Initiate (0) Sep 3, 2007 California

    Yes.
     
  13. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Thanks! This is at least one part of the process where I'd say that expertise and educated trial and error become important.
     
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  14. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    Absolutely! There is still the applied part of it here as well... If I taste Diacetyl later into fermentation than normal, what steps do I use to fix it? Same for Acetaldehyde. And then, how will those steps to fix that problem effect the rest of the batch? That is where understanding the science is very important.
     
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  15. Akerstache

    Akerstache Initiate (0) Feb 20, 2015 Germany

    I wouldn't even make such stark distinctions, if you create something that is held in high enough esteem by a certain grou of people it's art. Just because calculations, certain processes and the likes are involved doesn't rob it of its creative part if you ask me. And that goes for anything, from designing a building to writing a song.
     
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  16. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Come on people (besides you, mister got-in-there-first @MNAle ).
    The thread's only on the first page and you can't bother reading the posts? :stuck_out_tongue:
     
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  17. mwa423

    mwa423 Initiate (0) Nov 7, 2007 Ohio

    A great painter can make a beautiful painting that defines an entire period of art. A great scientist can figure out how to take that painting and then print millions of that beautiful painting in the exact quality on a Xerox machine. So, the first batch of any beer is an art, the second batch is where the science takes over.
     
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  18. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    But... if a painting was not held in good esteem by anyone, couldn't it be bad art (and therefore still art).
     
  19. Smakawhat

    Smakawhat Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,191) Mar 18, 2008 Maryland
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Yes (in answer to the question)
     
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  20. Akerstache

    Akerstache Initiate (0) Feb 20, 2015 Germany

    Certainly can be, it really depends how you want to define art. I like to think of it as strengthening the case for it being art if it is held in esteem by a certain group of people. This generally not being the case could have multiple reasons, lack of exposure, being "bad" as you noted and a myriad of others I'm too unimaginative to think of right now.

    I mean, just like with certain beers where a certain consensus would agree that they are bad doesn't make them any less of a beer. 50 Shades of Grey is still art, even if its merits are debatable.
     
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