Coagulation of protein and albumin -- how to ensure clean hot break

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by herrburgess, Apr 25, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    I use just enough to (based on my brewing software) get my mash pH to the 5.3-5.4 range. Use it instead of liquid just because I am a Reinheitsgebot fanboy, and it prohibits the use of liquid acid.
     
  2. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Ah. I could send you a very professional looking sticker that says "Produced from Lactobacillus which occurs naturally on malt," if that would help. :slight_smile:
     
    herrburgess likes this.
  3. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    You really have one of those stickers? Cool! :wink:
     
  4. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Initiate (0) May 29, 2011 Florida

    @herrburgess , what is you're process for coming to a boil? How long do you play with the break before lowering you're heat source to the level that you maintain the ensuing boil? Perhaps in the last two batches you didn't give enough time for a good hot break?
     
    herrburgess likes this.
  5. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    Since we are brewing 1 bbl batches, we start the burner when there are about 5 gal in the kettle, just to cut down on time. Generally boils are 75 min -- and fairly rigorous -- with the first 15 min set aside for the hot break to occur and the proteins to coagulate (and be skimmed without extracting any of the hops).

    I have since rechecked my numbers and seen that my mash pH is coming in around 5.5. Higher than I thought, then, but in the so-called "desired range" of 5.4-5.7 that is given in the EZ Water calculator.

    Also German brewers apparently have mash pHs in this range, so nothing out of the ordinary there. They do, however, typically employ at the very least an infusion mash...and sometimes even decoction...which would help toward separating the proteins and leaving them in the mash tun.

    I wonder if I am experiencing this because I use single infusion temps for my light lager mashes. Anyone have any thoughts here? I may have the opportunity soon to brew on a system with steam jackets and mash rakes, which would make infusion mashing a whole lot easier...
     
  6. koopa

    koopa Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2008 New Jersey

    What temperature is your wort when you take your pH reading? 5.4 - 5.7 is good at mash temp, since it roughly translates to 5.05 - 5.35 at room temperature.
     
    herrburgess likes this.
  7. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    Usually take reading at mash out.
     
  8. koopa

    koopa Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2008 New Jersey

    That's probably 5.1 at room temperature which is all good.
     
    herrburgess likes this.
  9. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    I suspect my "problem" is in doing single-infusion mashes for these styles. Weird thing is, however, that in some batches the proteins coagulate in the kettle much better than in others. Also going to keep a journal comparing protein contents of the Weyermann bags we use.
     
  10. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    Had another thought: anyone do a protein rest at 122F to aid in this process? Think it would help?
     
  11. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    What exactly are you looking to achieve via conducting a protein rest?

    Below is what John Palmer states in his online book How to Brew:

    “Moderately-modified malts benefit from a protein rest to break down any remnant large proteins into smaller proteins and amino acids as well as to further release the starches from the endosperm. Fully-modified malts have already made use of these enzymes and do not benefit from more time spent in the protein rest regime. In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery.

    Weyermann Pilsner malt is well modified and doesn’t really need to have a protein rest.

    Dave Green (@telejunkie) wrote an excellent article on the topic of Step Mashing: http://byo.com/all-grain-brewing/item/1497-the-science-of-step-mashing

    Cheers!
     
  12. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    I'm looking to produce clearer wort by leaving many of the proteins behind in the mash. I have frequently read -- usually from U.S. (home)brewers -- that today's fully modified malts obviate the need for things like protein rests, infusion mashes, and decoction. While this may be defensible in theory, I have found that these types of mash regimens do tend to produce beers that are more like the German originals I typically brew.
     
  13. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    @telejunkie writes in his article that "a 15–30 minute hold in the proteinase range [55-58C] was thought to diminish haze, but not negatively impact foam or body." However, most German brewers hold at 50C. Again, there seems to be conflicting information out there, so I'd love some additional input.
     
  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I have read that conducting a protein rest of well modified malt may promote better extraction efficiencies but I have not read anything about conducting a protein rest to create a clearer wort.

    FWIW, my practice for obtaining clear wort is to consistently obtain a lot of hot break (and skim it), maintain a rolling boil, add some rehydrated Irish Moss to the kettle, and obtain a quick cool down (to promote cold break).

    Maybe Dave Green will provide his opinion on this matter.

    Cheers!
     
  15. bergbrew

    bergbrew Initiate (0) Jan 12, 2004 Minnesota

    Narziss states the same, as does Kunze.
     
    hopfenunmaltz and JackHorzempa like this.
  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    My interpretation of the word "was" is that it indicates past thinking.

    Hopefully Dave will 'jump in' and clarify (no pun intended) what's what.

    Cheers!
     
  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Dave, has anybody studied whether conducting a protein rest for fully modified malt results in a clearer wort?

    Even if there is a potential 'benefit' from a wort clarity perspective the downside of having a beer that is thin and watery is too great of an expense IMO.

    Cheers!
     
  18. bergbrew

    bergbrew Initiate (0) Jan 12, 2004 Minnesota

    Protein modification is almost completely taken care of by the maltster. If you are worried about beta glucan or low FAN, a lower temp rest can be beneficial. It would be extremely unusual to need more FAN in an all malt beer. In fact, if you have that problem, my suggestion would be to never purchase that malt again! Likewise with beta glucan. Modern malts, regardless of origin, don't display these problems.
     
    JackHorzempa likes this.
  19. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    I do many/all of the same things to obtain clear wort, but recently have had some batches where my existing processes didn't seem to result in as much coagulation of proteins during the early stages of the boil. What do you do in such cases (assuming you have encountered them)?

    There are also the factors of pH that may be playing a role here, as discussed. Just thought I'd ask about the protein rest since, especially when I have utilized one as part of a decoction regiment, I have noticed a distinct layer of coagulated protein atop the grain bed before (and during) sparge.

    In Steve Holle's presentation on German brewing techniques, he states that almost ALL German brewers still use infusion mashing (including but not limited to protein rests at 50C). Again, seems to be some conflicting info out there.... Hopefully together we can get to the bottom of it.
     
  20. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    Anyone checking their boil pH and then adding acid/base near end of boil?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.