The Definitive Knock-down, Drag-out Cloudy Beer Debate Thread

Chill haze is nothing more than a minor irritation, particularly in a culture that doesn't promote chilled beer.I never drink filtered beers to my knowledge but my beer isn't cloudy. There seems to be a mind set with some people that clarity actually involves flavour loss; my experience is that it enhances (de muddifies) the taste.Now the clog has gone I can taste the beer properly.

 

Or arrogance

 

I'd guess a good part of it is generational, with older people habituated to clarity in beer and youngsters acclimated to some beers being hazy and therefore lacking the sense that haziness represents some kind of deviation from the norm.

 

Arrogance (or ignorance) knows no borders.

 

Better have a haz-mat suit.

But I think we've just defined American brewing: The Pollock School: Throw hops/paint at it to see where it sticks. And the Edward Hopper School: Classic without being so realistic as to be boring.

 

Since we seem to be quoting folks.

Greg Koch (@StoneGreg):

• Stretching new boundaries
• Going in new ways
• Following their passions

You can hear it in his own words at around 2:35 of the below video.

Cheers!

 

He and his company are also probably one of the biggest contributors to the ridiculous notion that any beer that physically resembles an AAL -- including clarity -- is something to be avoided (or, since we are quoting folks, "for wussies."). What a load of crap.

 

“Knock-down, Drag-out Cloudy Beer Debate Thread”

@breadwinner, it appears that you have achieved your goal.

Cheers!

 

Any other type of debate would be "for wussies," right?

 

I've actually been doing some instrumental analysis of this recently, so good timing! Using an IPA and tracking it through the filtration process (DE, in this case), and using headspace SPME GC to analyze hop aroma, I've found that DE filtration strips a substantial amount of hop aroma (as represented by the hop oil terpenes) from the beer. The reduction was on an order of 30%-50%. Maybe if you start with enough you can live with that, but you're also spending money to put aroma in and then taking it right back out. I'm sure the results would be slightly different depending on your filtration medium, but I'd put money on any type of filtration incurring a significant loss.

Call me new-fashioned, but I just don't think it's needed. You can achieve a reasonable clarity, if desired, using centrifugation, fining and/or cold conditioning (centrifuging, by the way, did not remove any measurable hop aroma). I don't need or even particularly want a perfectly crystal clear beer. I do think that floaties and excessive yeast are a problem; that's just poor/lazy brewing, but haze? Haze is fine and sometimes even desirable.

 

"Haze is fine and sometimes even desirable."

Words of wisdom!! Thanks Peter.

Cheers!

 

What are new boundaries?
Sounds as stupid as "stretching the envelope" when nobody has even seen any envelope.

 

I am personally unfamiliar with the expression of “stretching the envelope”.

I am very familiar with the phrase of “pushing the envelope” which makes great sense to me. It has absolutely nothing to do with a physical envelope (something you would put a letter in).

“Origin

This phrase came into general use following the publication Tom Wolfe's book about the space programme - The Right Stuff, 1979:

"One of the phrases that kept running through the conversation was ‘pushing the outside of the envelope’... [That] seemed to be the great challenge and satisfaction of flight test."

Wolfe didn't originate the term, although it's appropriate that he used it in a technical and engineering context, as it was first used in the field of mathematics.

The envelope here isn't the container for letters, but the mathematical envelope, which is defined as 'the locus of the ultimate intersections of consecutive curves'.”

 

With regards to beer and brewing, as I said earlier, there never was any envelope so the idea of pushing it or even stretching it is pure fantasy.

 

Very true. To my eye there is a huge difference between a chill haze or a protein haze, a slight sediment or a few particles of yeast in suspension AS COMPARED to a beer that looks like and has the consistency of orange or grapefruit juice. I am tempted to throw in a question. Do you think that the kind of turbidity and grapefruit juice like haze we are talking about increases the weight of the beer as far as mouthfeel?

 

Hmmm. So given the fundamental importance of aromas in influencing flavors, loss of a lot of aroma through filtration can indeed substantially change the flavor. Thanks for that report of your results.

 

When and why?

I don't often care about such things, but since you've made the statement I have to wonder. Since I first started getting into beer (many decades ago) clarity was a good thing and haze often defined that "laziness" in brewing you mentioned. Maybe even lack of patience, as one couldn't wait long enough for a beer to clear before drinking it.

 

In beers that have huge aroma hop contributions more so than in others, certainly.