The Definitive Knock-down, Drag-out Cloudy Beer Debate Thread

Depends on the yeast, some are basically flavor neutral when fermenting and if I were bottle conditioning that's the kind I would use if I were using a different one for bottle conditioning, as some Brewers do, and if I didn't want flavor change in the bottle.

 

Peter Wolfe has already indicated that the murk contributes nothing to the flavour.It is just like dust on a picture , get rid of it and everything looks better.Filtration clearly removes more than just the murkiness, but I drink water bright beer all the time that's never been near a filter.There are other ways of getting clear beer, if well brewed it more or less clears on its own.

 

Can you link to that or elaborate a bit more. The way I read his posts in this thread is that the murk/cloudiness makes no contribution to the Aromas he measured so removing it does not affect them. I didn't see him directly address flavors, which are a combination of input from both the sense of smell and the sense of taste. So fining doen't seem to affect certain aromas, thereby not affecting flavors through that route, but I don't see where he said there is no effect on the taste and thereby on the flavor.

So any pointer you have would be most helpful. Thanks!

 

What we call taste is in fact aroma (you know what happens to your sense of taste when your nose is blocked with a cold)

 

If you have a bad sinus condition like I am just getting over, you can still taste sweet, salty, sour, bitter and umami. All of the other things we call "flavor" are absent, as those depend on aroma.

 

Actually no, as pointed out just above, what we call taste is is provided by the taste buds in the tougue. What we call smell or aroma is contributed by the sense of smell. Flavor is a result of the combined activities of both the sense of taste and the sense of smell. You may find this helpful in sorting some of these things out:

http://www.tastingscience.info/explained/explains.htm

 

I carefully poured my first bottle of Congress Street (not double dry hopped) without the yeast. I thought the beer was just alright. I also had a bottle of Galaxy Dry Hopped Fort Point, I carefully poured the first part, then the last 3/4 or so of the beer I poured everything in. The yeast poured in made the beer absolutely out of this world hoppy and delicious in comparison.

Maybe I'm off-base here, but do you think IPL's aren't rated as high due to the lager yeast cleaning up too much of a hop forward beer? Are these dry-hopped tropical fruit-forward beers meant to have yeast/other floaties in their flavor profile? I'm asking not really declaring this as fact.

I believe they use my company's filters, I'd be curious to know which ones.

 

Another thought...the American IPA is still evolving, heck, just look at "old school" IPAs vs. newer ones. Stone Ruination and Stone Enjoy By/Ruination 2.0 or Victory Hop Wallop and Dirt Wolf.

And now "New England IPAs" are some of the highest rated, and many are quite murky/cloudy. You need look no further than the top of the mountain with Heady Topper. If you don't see it as a gimmick, the Alchemist urges you to "drink straight from the can" to contain the aroma/flavor from the floaties inside.

Strictly speaking to the appearance of a beer....if it truly mattered I imagine Heady Topper and Guinness would have their ratings flipped.

 

Well as a home brewer now for 4 plus years and I bottle condition allot, maybe its me but seem to be able to taste the yeast or what it does to the beer anyway. of course I could be wrong. but crazy thing about tastes is you cannot tell me what I taste, as I cannot tell you what you taste. even with a frame of reference we are all different. but of course I been drinking for lunch so what do I know, lol.

 

Understood. I taste many yeasts as well, but others who homebrew tell me that the taste of the yeast itself can vary and that some yeasts can make very little difference to the flavors of the beer (where as something like Belgian yeasts or Hefe yeast may be critical to the flavors both during the brewing and later in the drinking).

Also, actually if we work at it in the right way it is possible for us to develop a shared vocabulary to each describe what we taste in ways that the other could have a pretty good idea of what the tastes and flavors are. When it comes to tastebuds, etc. we are all different in the same way that all hair colors are different. Your taste buds are not mine, and vice versa, but if we are both "normal" we have the ability to taste sweet, sour, etc. Brown hair is still brown hair even though the shades may differ a bit.

 

There is more than one aspect to beer flavor and yeast.

There are flavors that a yeast strain can produce during fermentation. Examples would be esters (e.g., fruity), phenols (e.g., spicy), etc. Some Belgian yeast strains will produce a fair amount of esters and phenols particularly under the condition of warm fermentation. If the beer is filtered post fermentation these yeast produced flavors will still exist in the beer even though the yeast itself has been removed from the beer via the filtering process.

The presence of yeast in the beer is sometimes described by folks via a flavor descriptor of “yeasty”. I suppose this makes sense on one level since the descriptor is consistent with the presence of yeast but the term “yeasty” has no objective reference for me like flavor descriptors of citrusy, apple like, etc. Is there an objective flavor descriptor for the presence of yeast in a beer?

Cheers!

 

Thanks!

That's the distinction I was after earlier. There are the flavors contributed by the yeast during fermentation and the flavor of the yeast itself. Lost track of the number of folks who've been surprised to learn that Sierra Nevada bottle conditions their Pale Ale and that there is at least some yeast in their Pale Ale. (Indeed I was surprised by that too... :-))

Do the yeast labs make specific note of what flavor the yeast itself may have when drinking the beer or is that something brewers find out by trial and error (i.e., that the yeast itself has little or no flavor)?

 

Tom,

For the case of flavors that can be produced by certain yeast strains there is a variety of ‘sources’. The yeast vendors sometimes provide some insight (see like below for White Labs), there is discussion in literature (e.g., for homebrewers magazines like BYO and Zymurgy) and there is no substitute for “just doing it” and see what results in your own brewery. Also information is exchanged among homebrewers on the BA homebrewing forum to share personal experiences.

You can download a PDF chart on various White Labs Belgian yeast strains and their flavor contributions at varying fermentation temperatures: http://www.whitelabs.com/resources/belgian-chart

Cheers!

 

The primary aspect I pick up on in having any residual yeast in suspension is a change in mouthfeel. And when that yeast coats my tongue/palate, I find it tends to mute, or muddle, the individual flavors in most "styles."

 

Super! Thanks. I'll look for some of those sources.

However, your comments and the Chart seem to focus on flavor contributions produced by the byproducts of the yeast during fermentation. Is there also something else out there that focuses only on the flavor of the yeast itself, say when consumed without the beer that it has recently fermented.

That is if I bottle condition with a yeast other than the one used in fermentation, there will be some fermentation going on as the beer carbonates and the sugars are eaten. But after that there's often a bit of yeast that settles to the bottom. If I isolate out that yeast from the beer, is there also something that describes the flavors of that yeast. The reason for being curious is that I've been told more than once that some yeasts used for bottle conditioning are chosen both because they settle to the bottom, and also that they pretty much flavorless. Anything on that or is it just learn on the job, etc.

 

“Is there also something else out there that focuses only on the flavor of the yeast itself,…” That is why I posted my question previously of: “Is there an objective flavor descriptor for the presence of yeast in a beer?”

As you will read in the post made by herrburgess he is suggesting that it is a mouthfeel quality vs. a flavor per se.

“That is if I bottle condition with a yeast other than the one used in fermentation, there will be some fermentation going on as the beer carbonates and the sugars are eaten.” For all intents and purposes there is no flavor contribution via the bottle conditioning process; there is too little ‘yeast food’ (i.e., priming sugar) for this to happen.

“But after that there's often a bit of yeast that settles to the bottom. If I isolate out that yeast from the beer, is there also something that describes the flavors of that yeast.” Again, that is why I asked: “Is there an objective flavor descriptor for the presence of yeast in a beer?”

“The reason for being curious is that I've been told more than once that some yeasts used for bottle conditioning are chosen both because they settle to the bottom, and also that they pretty much flavorless. Anything on that or is it just learn on the job, etc.” If I had to guess all beer yeasts would taste the same (i.e., no difference in flavor on a per yeast strain basis). For the case of producing a bottle conditioned beer where the goal is to have a clear(er) beer, the purpose of selecting a flocculent yeast for bottle conditioning is to have the majority of the yeast settle to the bottom of the glass and not be in solution.

Cheers!

Edit: I should emphasize that for my homebrewed bottle conditioned beers I take great care to let the yeast remain in the bottom of the bottle. I do not drink yeast that has settled to the bottom of the bottle.

 

Thanks both. I think I’m getting a few things sorted out and moving up on better understanding. If I have more questions, etc. I'll take them to PM so that we're not thread napping. :-)

 

Funny, too much hops or beer dispensed on nitro has a similar effect to my palate.

Same here, I hate it when I accidentally pour in yeast from home brewed beer.

 

Or causing the others to start napping

 

Hence the blank space....