Bayernbiere Bought and Drunk

And hop extracts.

 

Works for Pliny.

@einhorn is right, though -- probably not unlike German styles, there's a reason certain types of malt are (often) used in IPAs. They just work. Not to say that other malts can't be used, of course.

 

Yep, very well.

 

To follow up, and hopefully to not come across as too confrontational or to start any cliche American beer vs the world debates, the thing about German IPAs sort of reminds us that, whether you think American beer is generally too full of bombast or not, and whether there are examples of breweries thoughtlessly cramming hops into every beer they make or not, there are many breweries with otherwise potent hop bombs that have created them thoughtfully and with purpose.

It's easy to paint such beers as accidents, as though the brewer just threw a bunch of shit into the mash tun and said, "Ta-da!" But the reality, and read enough interviews with the renowned practitioners of those sorts of beers like Russian River's Vinnie Cilurzo, much less the dudes from Lagunitas, is that there's a lot of thought and intentionality in creating a good hopy beer like Pliny or Lagunitas IPA (incidentally, I really loved my last bottle of that precisely because of its notable crackery malt notes, which supplemented the classic grapefruit/pine hop notes). Not just in the hops used, but also with other ingredients (Pliny's noted use of dextrose, for example), including malts.

Just as so many German brewers are incredibly skilled at brewing their particular styles, and do so with incredible precision and rigor, so too do many American brewers in their respective styles. As with anything, it's about separating out the skilled practitioners from the unskilled.

 

Agree 100%. I have always said that U.S. brewers have made an amazing contribution to global brewing with such beers -- and in such a short period of time. I have no doubt that American-style IPAs will be around -- and popular -- for a long, long time.

 

The bigger question is probably how long it'll take -- or if there's even a desire -- for American brewers to understand and master other styles, such as lagers. And, likewise, whether other countries desire, and are able, to master American styles. (Note: my apologies to the Brits for implying IPA is an American style -- I mean only to say the American take on the style.)

Being stuck in America, I'd love for this country's brewers to become more adept at world styles. On the other hand, I don't really have an expectation for German brewers, for example, to master IPAs. If they do, more power to them, but that's sort of the quandry, isn't it -- and I think, if I'm not too bold or off course here, Herr B, that's been your point many times before. Why should Koln brewers start making IPAs, much less brewers from Franconia or whatever. That's the rub, and I don't really have an answer. I don't begrudge anyone for wanting to try something new, because if I were to take up that cause, wouldn't I sort of be arguing for American brewers to make only IPAs and big stouts? I'd love to think the two can coexist peacefully, that the German brewers who want to dabble in IPAs and such can do so without harming the heritage of lagers/weizens/traditional brewing practices, just like American brewers can learn how to brew such styles without abandoning their love of hops and barrels and what not. It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out, I suppose.

 

For better or worse, Americans (in most disciplines) have always attempted to take on the world right from the get-go and try to make a masterpiece out of nothing -- no formal education, no tradition...but also no fear. 99% of the time, they fail; but the failures can frequently be spectacular, and the 1% that succeed seem to come out of nowhere and are very impressive indeed.

Needless to say, Germans are very different in their approach to such things.

If I had to guess, I'd say Germans will stick to the quintessence of what they see as U.S. "craft" -- namely grapefruity IPAs and whiskey stouts/darks -- and do that over and over and over, especially if there proves to be a solid (niche) market for such beers. The other "styles" will eventually die out over there.

Americans will likely stick to wild experimentation and will crank out 1000s of spectacular (and not so spectacular) "failures" across a wide range of "styles" until the market weeds out the popular from the unpopular ones -- and the 1% will crank out excellent beers that will, hopefully, inspire others to either step up their game or die.

 

Interesting thoughts here, Herr B. Do you have other examples in mind of the American propensity for taking on the world from the get-go? I wonder, if such a propensity exists, if it will change over time, as more knowledge is gained and shared.

At any rate, you can certainly count me among those who not at all saddened by the thought of a die-off of bad beer producers stateside. The usual talk of a bubble or shakeout pops up every couple months, and every couple months my answer is the same: let the bad ones die off and the better ones remain; all the better for us the consumers. Unfortunately, not everyone seems to agree with my definition of which ones are bad!

 

Well, I am thinking mainly of literature. American writers have been notorious for taking on the BIG themes with no fear and a true belief that they can answer the age-old questions once and for all. Just the thought of such things makes the Brits embarrassed, the Germans offended, and the French derisive. Doesn't stop us, though!

 

Well, now I'm even more intrigued - c'mon now, give a few examples. I suppose I'm not well-read enough to have known of such a propensity, but I'd love to see it in action.

 

Why shouldn't a franconian brewer, or a brewer from cologne, make an IPA?...I don't get it. Sure they are different, but the results work. And bigger brewers from both regions make succesfull beers with new ingredients and new ideas (Gaffels Sonnenhopfen, Veldensteiner Bierwerkstatt Mandarina Weisse for instance), which are in some cases even based on traditional styles. I think we already see that it works out rather nicely, doesn't it?

 

Well, I was sort of espousing a viewpoint I've heard @herrburgess express about wanting traditional breweries to focus on traditional brews, rather than getting swept up in the rush to make something new and "crafty". I think the idea is that, if you go to Cologne, you really should be going to drink Kolsch, not an IPA (at least first and foremost). And I really respect the desire to preserve the heritage of such styles (kolsch, Franconian kellerbier, etc.) I think the concern is that if they start focusing on creating new beverages, that emulate trendy styles, the heritage-type brews will lose their place.

That's the part where I don't have an answer. As an American (and someone just sort of generally drawn to the novel and the different), I personally lean toward freedom for experimentation -- I was just expressing there that I undertand the concern that there may not be a need for Germans to become masters of IPAs, any more than they need to become masters of British cask ale. Again, I think that's Herr B's point. That said, I kinda lean in the direction of hoping for experimentation, inasmuch as I'd love to see American brewers improve their grasp of German-style brews, for the simple reason that, if they made them at a similar level, I could just buy those and not have to deal with the challenges of finding fresh imported examples

 

Ok, so just different perspectives.
I simply see, from the standpoint of someone who lives in germany, that german, esp. franconian styles, are as popular as ever. It is a coexistence, not a fight aiganst one line of brewing- "craft"stuff has its niche, and I think it appeals to people who did not want beer before...
I'm thinking of one franconian vineyard: the father makes traditional Sylvaner, in Bocksbeutel bottles, while the son now makes modern Sylvaner, with spontaneous fermentation and long rest,with a fancy name, in tall Schlegelflaschen-and both sell.
I think this is something which also can be seen in the beer world and which symbolizes the respect in front of tradition, while also looking forward.

And with american-inspired IPAs, there is another factor- what if we as germans simply want the taste from time to time? Expensive imports for me are,also from an ecological standpoint, no real solution.

 

Well said. Again, I lean more in your direction, because I love having a variety of options. Not that traditional styles don't offer variety. They most certainly do. But, if you're someone who loves IPAs or a big old stout from time to time, it's nice when they're available, to be sure. If German brewers do continue to go down the IPA road, for example, I certainly hope they make some good ones for you all! Just like I hope you continue to enjoy as many a kolsch/alt/kellerbier/etc. as you can

 

I am not opposed to traditional German brewers making U.S. "craft" styles as part of their portfolio (as long as they are well made). What I am opposed to is traditional German brewers buying into the idea that only by doing so are they going to survive. Instead, they should be holding themselves and their traditions -- not U.S. "craft" beer -- up as a model for how to reinvigorate an industry in overall decline. Or, hell, hold up the fact that they can do both traditional and "new" well....

 

Gotcha. Good stuff. I actually thought of you when I saw Mahrs's Mastodon pop up on a friend's Untappd feed while he was at some bar on the East Coast. Mahrs with a brew named after a metal band?! Certainly not the picture of a staid brewer consigned to its demise, as some people would paint traditional German brewers. Even Schlenkerla's creation of the smoked weizen, which I understood took place in the early 2000s or something, right? I mean, I think that's the sort of "innovation" framed in the context of their own brewing tradition that you speak of, no? Again, I dig it. I'll say this: any framework for reinvigorating German brewing that involves the abandonment of traditional beer would be a terrific loss for beer drinkers there and worldwide. I hope it never comes to that.

 

Exactly. Since I moved to the U.S. from Germany (and even in the 3-5 years preceding), Bamberg breweries alone have produced probably 20-30 new beers: from Keesmann's Sternla Ungespundet, Helles, and Weizen to Mahr's Gig, Saphir Weisse, and ETA Hoffmann Dunkel; to Spezial's Ungespundet, Weizen, and Bock; to Schlenkerla's Krausen, Eiche, and Fastenbier; to Greifenklau's Rauchbier, Roter Bock, and dry-hopped Lagers. Not to even mention the new stuff from places like Rittmayer, Goeller, Gaenstaller, Staffelberg, and Meinel. The list goes on and on. These are all welcome additions. What we don't necessarily need are more IPAs. But even then, one or two locally made, fresh options would be fine. Just foreground tradition and background the "innovation" please.

 

Once again, I find myself increasingly thirsty...

 

Never made it to Ayinger - got totally side tracked in the Austrian Alps - Prost allies!

 

Hafelekar above Innsbruck?? Sweet, regardless!!

Prosit!!