2nd time extract brew, I have some questions

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by IPAustin7, Jul 25, 2015.

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  1. IPAustin7

    IPAustin7 Initiate (0) Jul 24, 2015 Arkansas

    Okay, I just bottled my first brew a week ago and there were a couple things that did not come out quite as expected. 1) The beer was darker than I expected by 3-4 SRM. 2) It didn't have much hop flavor or bitterness. The beer tasted clean (overly malty), just tasted like my recipe could use a lot of work. I downloaded beersmith because some of those recipe calculator websites give me concern on how well they work (or how well I know how to use them.)

    So, for my second batch this is the recipe I have cooked up, and I also have some in general questions on brewing. For starters, based on How To Brew and forums I read, I started with 3 gallons of water last time.

    .5 lbs Carapils
    .5 lbs Caramel 20 (I used 60 last time, but I'm trying to lighten it up.)

    I steep these grains for 30 minutes, shake out the bag gently over the pot, and throw them away.
    Last time, I added 7 pounds LME. This time I thought I would add half now and half after (Forums give me the impression this could also help to lighten the beer.) Back to the recipe.

    1 lbs DME
    3.5 lbs LME
    1 lb Table Sugar (To add to the ABV. From what I've read, it's fine to use in this way but keep it under 10%)

    .75 oz Centennial (60 min)
    .50 oz Simcoe (30 min)
    3.5 lbs LME (15 min)
    1 oz Pacifica (15 min)
    1 oz Rakau (10 min)
    1 oz Galaxy (5 min)
    .50 oz Simcoe (5 min)
    .25 oz Centennial (5 min)
    1 oz Citra (0 min)


    Now I use an Ice Bath to cool it down. I get free ice from work, so I have plenty. It took me about 30 minutes last time to get it all the way down last time (80 F).

    Then I slosh it in between the pot and the bucket a few times to get the aeration going. Then I add the about 2 gallons of water to get to 5 gallons. Then I use the hydrometer to take the OG. Last time I used liquid yeast, WLP001 California Ale. I boiled 4 cups water, poured the yeast in that cup, covered it and put it in the fridge for 15 minutes, took it out and pitched my yeast.

    Last time I did only one stage fermentation, this time I'm going for two. Based on what Beersmith tells me, this is my projected time frame.

    Primary Fermentation - 4 days ( Although, I think, I know just to wait until the bubbler calms down and fermentation has slowed it's roll. )

    Secondary Fermentation (5 gal glass carboy) - 10 days

    Then begin my dry hop.
    2 oz Citra
    1 oz Galaxy
    1 oz Rakau

    All of these for 7 days in a small grain bag (which the guy at my brew store said would work fine for hops.) I'm under the impression to put some sort of weight in, some sanitized bolts or something, to keep the hops closest to the center of the carboy. After the 7 days, I will take the hop bag out and proceed to bottle.

    So, a total of 4-5 days in the Primary and about 17 days in the Secondary, with the last 7 being the dry hop.


    In conclusion my main question is about the whole Partial boil thing. I did that last time because that's just what I thought you did. I've read since then that adding the water at the end will dilute your hop flavor and bitterness. I certainly don't want to do that. I'm assuming that is a contributor to last time why it was so un-hoppy. I also only used 3 ounces of hops, although I used them earlier in the boil to try and drive the IBUs up.

    I have a 40L pot. So I assume there is enough space for a full boil. Would this affect my recipe or brewing process at all? (Other than not adding water at the end, obviously.) In beersmith I'm using Pot and Cooler (5 gal/19L) Extract/Partial Mash because none of the options are my size and I figured it was important to pick one that said extract beside it.

    The projected specs from beersmith are as follows:

    OG: 1.060
    IBUs: 72.2
    SRM: 8.8
    ABV: 6.3%

    So, I'm happy to hear any and all advice. Mainly I want to know if I'd be better of with a full boil, and how I should adjust my process/recipe to make that work. Also, will adding half of the LME at the end of the boil have the effect I'm looking for (lightening up the beer)? Does my dry hop time and process seem legit? I've already got the ingredients, so I'm pretty set on what hops and malt I'm using, but I'm happy to change the amounts/times.
     
  2. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    If possible, do a full boil.

    The secondary isn't needed in the way you used it. Leave the beer in the primary for 2-3 weeks. At that point, either dry hop in the primary or secondary for 5-7 days. Then bottle.
     
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  3. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Well, let’s start with what you posted concerning your first batch. You have not tasted this beer carbonated yet so it would be prudent for you to reserve judgement on that beer. Carbonated beer (with some aging time in the bottle) can taste noticeably different from the uncarbonated beer. Both the carbonation and time in the bottle ‘changes’ the flavor profile.

    For the case of this beer being darker, a concentrated (partial) boil will darken the wort (beer).

    So, let’s discuss batch number 2:

    I would recommend that you steep your carapils/Caramel 20 malts in 1 gallon of water; 150-160 degrees F for 30 minutes. Steeping in a lesser amount of water provides a proper pH which will lessen the extraction of tannins from the grains. Steep at a ratio of 1 lb. of specialty malts to 1 gallon of water.

    Adding ½ of the LME amount later will aid in keeping the wort (beer) lighter in color. Just remember to remove the pot from heat to ensure that the LME does not get scorched on the bottom of the hot pot; mix while adding the LME so it does not ‘sit’ too long on the bottom of the pot.

    You posted: “Last time I used liquid yeast, WLP001 California Ale. I boiled 4 cups water, poured the yeast in that cup, covered it and put it in the fridge for 15 minutes, took it out and pitched my yeast.” I really don’t understand this. What exactly are you doing with the liquid yeast and boiled water?

    “Last time I did only one stage fermentation, this time I'm going for two.” I would discourage you from doing this. There really is no need to conduct a secondary. Simply dry hop in your primary. I use a muslin bag weighed down with boiled glass marbles to contain my dry hops; I primary ferment in a bucket.

    Transferring from a primary to a secondary has risks of aerating (oxygentating) the beer which is a very bad thing plus potential infection (depending on the thoroughness of your secondary sanitation procedures).

    If you have a big enough pot (and 40 liters is big enough) just conduct a full boil. A full boil will result in a lighter colored beer (see my above discussion on concentrated (partial) boil). You will need A LOT of ice to cool down 5+ gallons of wort.

    Batch number 2 will be a higher gravity beer (OG = 1.060). It would be prudent to make a yeast starter or pitch two packages if using a liquid yeast. A single packet of US-05 (dry yeast) would be fine for this batch.

    Cheers!
     
  4. ChuckHardslab

    ChuckHardslab Maven (1,251) Jan 25, 2012 Texas

    I'd like to add that if you are tasting your beer from the bottling bucket you are probably also tasting the priming sugar. That will make your beer appear to be much sweeter than it will be after proper conditioning. Of course if you're kegging this is all moot.
     
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  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    "Okay, I just bottled my first brew a week ago..."

    Cheers!
     
  6. IPAustin7

    IPAustin7 Initiate (0) Jul 24, 2015 Arkansas

    First, thank you Jack! Your information was EXACTLY the advice I was looking for.

    Okay, steep the grains in 1 gallon of water. Then, I add in 4 more gallons of water, bring it to a boil, and commence adding all the ingredients?

    Yes, I realize, based on following How To Brew, I didn't pay attention to re hydrating dried yeast, and re hydrated my liquid yeast. Haha So, got it, just pitch the yeast whenever it is time (no extra effort necessary), and for this beer you're suggesting that I throw 2 in (if I go with liquid yeast still.)

    No secondary fermentation, got it. I'll wait till I've made a few good batches before I revisit that then.

    Now about the dry hopping... My bucket uses a plastic cork thing instead of a rubber washer. So... pull the cork out, lower the bag in through the hole, reinsert cork with airlock? And, would you agree with the last 7 days of fermentation and then just remove when I bottle?

    I got at least 60 pounds of ice last time, which i used in the bath tub. I think I'll just apply the same technique in the sink so it gets more contact with the ice. I'm not concerned about that part.

    Thanks a ton for your help man! This is what I needed to know and it brings me great peace of mind for my next batch.

    Cheers!
     
  7. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin


    Frankly, my advice was more relevant to your issues and was delivered in a more concise manner. Sadly, you didn't even have the courtesy to hit the like button. :rolling_eyes:
     
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  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    “Okay, steep the grains in 1 gallon of water. Then, I add in 4 more gallons of water, bring it to a boil, and commence adding all the ingredients?” I am not exactly sure of the 4 more gallons of water part. That might be OK. You need to account for boil off which will vary for each homebrewer. You want to start off with a total of around 7 gallons in the beginning of boil (combination of water, malt extract, etc.) and after 1 hour of boiling have something around 5.5 gallons of wort (which will result in something like 5 gallons of beer in your bottles). There will be some ‘wastage’ like beer in your trub, etc.

    “…just pitch the yeast whenever it is time (no extra effort necessary), and for this beer you're suggesting that I throw 2 in (if I go with liquid yeast still.)” Yeah, for an OG of around 1.060 you would want to use more than 1 smack-pack/vial of liquid yeast. I am a BIG fan of US-05 so one packet of that yeast is sufficient. Select the yeast that you prefer.

    “My bucket uses a plastic cork thing instead of a rubber washer. So... pull the cork out, lower the bag in through the hole, reinsert cork with airlock? And, would you agree with the last 7 days of fermentation and then just remove when I bottle?” I simply open the lid and gently place the muslin bagged dry hops into the beer and replace the bucket lid. 7 days is sufficient contact time. I personally do not remove the bag; I just siphon the beer from the bucket into my bottling bucket.

    “I got at least 60 pounds of ice last time, which i used in the bath tub. I think I'll just apply the same technique in the sink so it gets more contact with the ice. I'm not concerned about that part.” 60 lbs. of ice is indeed A LOT of ice. That should cool down your 5+ gallons of worst just fine!!

    Good luck with your second batch. Please report back how it turned out.

    Cheers!

    Jack
     
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  9. IPAustin7

    IPAustin7 Initiate (0) Jul 24, 2015 Arkansas

    Betty, although I appreciate your input, I didn't post 2 pages to hear, "Do a full boil if you can." I wanted advice, not commands. I asked how do I do things differently in a full boil. So, your advice wasn't addressing my issues. Once again, I am very appreciative, but his post was infinitely more helpful for what I was looking for. Thanks again!

    Jack, gotcha on the water, that makes sense. I've already bought the liquid yeast, so I'll give it one more go, but I will certainly be trying US-05 for batch 3. Thanks! I posted this on 3 different sites to try and get as much input as possible but I am extremely confident going in with everything you've told me.

    Thanks very much! You are a life saver. I will certainly get back to you on how it turns out.

    Austin
     
  10. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin


    "Do a full boil, if you can" isn't a command. It's good advice based on experience that validates your motive. I addressed another of your issues regarding premature and essentially unnecessary transfer to a secondary.

    I rarely read a JH post that is longer than two sentences, but I'll bet he said there is no need for a secondary. Does the same advice sound better when more words are used?

    So it turns out, you just want someone to tell you what you want to hear with as many words as you originally used and you completely disregarded concise and pertinent advice. Ok then!
     
  11. corbmoster

    corbmoster Pundit (848) Dec 15, 2014 Texas
    Trader

    Correct. You hydrate dry yeast. In the case of the wyeast smack packs, you just smack them to proof them. The quality of both dry and liquid yeast is good, as long as you go with a strain that complements the style of beer you are making, you won't be disappointed. After you have brewed another batch or two and you feel more comfortable with what you are doing, look into the topic of making yeast starters. It's a great tool you will appreciate later when you are ready to step up your game.

    As Jack mentioned, racking to a secondary has a set of pro's and con's. In this case, the pro's do not out weigh the cons (risk in trashing your beer). If you want to have clearer beer, let it sit in your bucket for 3-4 weeks instead of 1 or 2. Throw some Irish moss in the boil if you like. Not necessary, but it helps some. Between you and me, I think not having chill haze is over rated.

    Where are you doing your fermentations? keezer? Basement?
     
  12. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    is anyone going to critique this recipe? cause I could barely make it to the hop schedule but by then it was pretty much a classic "more is better" C-F.

    for the OP, always always always do a full wort boil. always. not debatable. if you can swing a full wort boil than do it. top 5 easy improvements to beginner brews. top 3 even.


    also, use a hydrometer. watching bubbles in your airlock is going to get you into trouble one day. a hydrometer is a professional piece of equipment and it is the exact same thing that has been used for centuries at all breweries. even today. same exact device. so you want to have one.
    use a hydrometer and you are a brewer. watch bubbles and you are something else.
    Cheers.
     
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