German craft beer

True.

And yet the price chasm between supermarket Pils, regional brews on the one side and new German "craft" on the other is much higher than for instance in Belgium. Partly because of the larger, more diverse demographic and the presence of a domestic wine culture, many craft beer marketers are consciously aiming at self-described "bon vivants" with plenty expendible income and in search of a new hobby - ("Genießer", an important deculpabilising term in partly protestant German marketing to sanction enjoyment and the extra cost it comes at).

Alas, excellent new breweries like world champion beer sommelier's Wesseloh Kehrwieder are creating precedents with €2,90/33cl domestic produced IPAs, roughly the ransom of imported Sierra Nevada Torpedo. I hope e.g. StoneBerlin will introduce some fierce quality competition in this newly mined "upscale/gehobener" Genießermarket and new German brewers will not see themselves forced to launch their mostly very approachable new brews in the luxury niche, just to set themselves apart from Oettinger.

When I discuss this with brewers here, they tend to get huffy and quote "man hours, risk of investment, labour of love, hand corking, brett takes time" etc. to justify their first-ever €20/L ales, €30/L BA bocks, or small batch €25/75cl Berliner framboise.
The shock then to them is quoting Belgian counter examples, like the Shelton Brothers exported De Ranke portfolio, e.g. their Cuvée (takes 1+ year to produce, young brewery still, small batch, hand wrapped: €6/75cl in Belgian markets), among many others, to illustrate that every brewing artisan also creates his own following and his own niche, either catering to the special occasion (often: "ein Bier für ganz besondere Gelegenheiten"), one-off investor and the snooty connaisseur or to a more grounded, but still enthusable multiplicator audience, which might take him a year longer to break even.

I believe that price politics, more so than recipe innovation (where are all those new approachable domestic Berliner Weisses, Münster Alts or Goses?) will be the central issue of contention for German "craft" in this conservative country in the near future.

 

P.S. An insider tip on one of the last great Pilsners from down SouthWest in the Schwarzwald, now that Rothaus is available all over the world and fast becoming the main Pils export from the Black Forest:

Elzacher Löwen-Pils and Kräusen Pils, both radiant with fresh, zesty and near-fruity Tettnanger, whilst offering an almost franconian rich malt base and none of that glib, overly filtered malt sweetness that Rothaus Tannenzäpfle has. Both €0,75/bottle.

(Will post pics afterwards when on PC)

 

No, being in Südbaden and having researched the topic with great interest, I can safely guarantee quod non.

The Welde Gose doesn't taste much like one either, if you take Ritterguts Gose as comparison. But it's an enjoyable enough, timid beer, like a German RhG witbier straying off course...

 

I disagree. It "should" cost more relative to beer whose prices are ridiculously low but if you're inflating the prices to the degree where your "small batch" (which is also something I'd be skeptical of, where does small batch brewing start and where does it end?) costs 15€ 33cl or even a bomber then that's just not adequate pricing. I mean, look at Riegele's Braukunstspezialitäten - a bomber goes for like 4€. I think the bombers by Maisel also go for like 5-6€. That's reasonable.

Braukunstkeller's BA series is expensive as hell. CraftWerk/Braufactum belongs to a huge conglomerate and their beer still goes for more than something like Häffner's Hopfenstopfer series which has for most of the time been a regional brewery in BaWü. Camba Bavaria is also able to make good beer at comparatively affordable prices. Hell, even most Belgians here are comparatively cheap. I do think he has a point that there's definitely a good lineup that costs more than is justified.

I mean nobody is disputing that the beer prices here are generally super low but if you want to appeal to more than a select niche of yuppie hipsters with money to throw at things you're gonna have to change your pricing policy. I mean hey, if that's what they wanna do - I'll vote with my money and not give them any.

 

Lots of interesting points.

First of all, belgian and german beer cultures are very different as I see it. Experemintation, bold flavors,complex brewing methods and adaption of non-traditional styles and mixing them up with a native approach to create something new aren't something that has happened in belgium for the last 2-3 years, to me it seems like this has always been a big part of belgian beer culture, which brought us iconic brews like Duvel or LaChouffe. So the new generation of younger brewers there is faced with a totally different situation than in germany. They don't have this "old,conservative, pale boring mass produced beer" as an enemy, they do not have to create a special image, they don't have to communicate what they are doing to the costumers- the enthusiastic specailty loving costumer base is already there.
Moreso, specailty beer ,esp. in case with Lambics and Geuzes, also with Saisons, was a peasant,working class drink, so it makes sense to me that it is not priced up to high heavens there (on the other hand, see what Cantillon costs in the us)
I think my main point is, in belgium, there are already enthusiast who are willing to pay the right amount for a brewer to survive, there is already knowledge and a culture in which those beers are consumed, and this culture is rooted in native traditions. (In general belgium has a very different culinary culture, but this would be too much to get into that as well...)
In germany, the new craft culture is something of a counterculture- I mean they position themselves radically different from traditional breweries, have mostly american inspired styles, have fancy,often english names. This is also why rarely historic german styles are recreated, but also a reason for the high prices. The communication between demographic and brewer is not finished here, and brewers are still seeing what they can charge for these "new" beers.
See Braufactum, their beers used to be way more expensive when they entered the market a few years ago, so I would say this is part of experimenting, seeing what costumers are willing to pay. It was the same with Maisels btw when they first launched Jeffs Bavarian Ale, they weren't sure what to take, and prices still differ from 4-6 Euros.

On the other hand, there are already many IPAs and Pale Ales for around 1,5€ on the shelves, and as long this is the case, I am happy.

One last thought: I'd argue that the demographic for native wines and craft beer, as well as the culture around it, is vastly different. Besides the local costumers in wine growing regions, the german wine nerds are also very cost sensitive and look for value for money as well as good, natural production methods.

 

Plus there is a lot of affordable, good wine. I got a bottle of 2011 Cuvée aged in Barrique barrels for 12 months for like 12€ for my father a few months ago from this Wajos store (which apparently originated out of a family owned Mosel winery). I've tried a bunch of their stuff and was pleasantly surprised after being mostly confronted with generic Riesling, Rosé and Dornfelder in Southern Palatinate.

I do agree with @Lurchus that there are differences between Belgium and Germany but I don't think that explains the whole picture and in particular price discrepancies like good stuff from Camba and Häffner going for ~2€ whereas Hans Müller, Kühn Kunz Rosen, CraftWerk and the likes are charging quite a bit more for a product that is likely not that much better than things that are more affordable. And I do think there are similarities in the sense that there are already regional niches where people will drink the traditional beer for their region oftentimes and I do think that they can provide a good target demographic.

And I'm gonna repeat what I said elsewhere: Most people that I have shared stuff with have found something they like and by far the biggest complaint I hear from friends is price. Plus I really can't see an approach that pretty much goes for a very small demographic and risks becoming such a niche thing that "outsiders" think it's for the pompous and pretentious work out in the long run. Particularly as competition increases and competition sure as hell will increase with further removing international barriers and Stone setting up European headquarters here. If I can get some of the Stone lineup for an affordable price I sure as hell won't be opting for a German interpretation that I'll likely like less and that will cost me more.

Also, talking small batch and value: Pax Bräu brews on a pretty small scale comparatively and their 1l bottles aren't super expensive, either.

 

Talking about small batch and value: See the Zoigl brewers in the Oberpfalz, see Brauerei Heckel in Waischenfeld- <2 Euro for 0,5l- in the pub!

And-why don't you think the different cultures explain it? For me, the differences between the examples you mentioned are a proof that brewers are still looking for what they can get, and there are different business approaches to it. Price labels on german craft beer are clearly not solely linked to manufacturing cost..... With belgian beers, I usually, outside of some hyped stuff which is mainly for the us market off course and the big industrial lagers, see a way more consistent link between price and actual product quality than there is in the german craft scene.

Is there any info on how Stone will price their berlin brewed beers?

Anyway, your example of giving friends beer to taste, as telling as it is, is somehow problematic for such a discussion. They might like it- but even for a lower price, will they go out of their way to get it, or will they stick to their old pils brand the next time they are in the supermarket? I myself "converted" a few friends over the years, sure. And back in franconia, there are many cheap "craft style" brews for <1 Euro/0,5l (See for instance Main Seidla Porter and Amber Ale..)
But still, the scene needs more people who try the stuff out of cruiosity and not only because friends feed it to them. And this needs marketing and communication of values and yes, media attention to delevop an enthusiast base..which is only slowly forming, mainly in the "hipster" centrals, Hamburg,Munich and Berlin. And this aigan proofs that the Hipster market can be enough for many small new enterprises.

 

And there's probably more.

No idea what this sentence is referencing or what exactly you're asking here.

Nobody is disputing that. I'm just saying the approach of some breweries seems suboptimal.

Again, nothing to dispute here.

I met Chris Sullivan in March when I was in Hamburg and we talked a bit about their OP, he didn't mention pricing though. I do believe to remember that somewhere it was noted that Stone is planning to be competetive so I'm guessing they won't charge 3€ for a pale ale.

They don't have to go out of their way to get it. In cities like Hamburg (just as an exmaple) there's more than enough options to get good stuff that isn't necessarily super expensive. There's quite a few homebreweries and special pubs that have come out lately and getting the stuff is increasingly becoming easier.

I'm not saying that it can't be enough for the time being, I'm saying it could backfire in the long run when competition pushes them out of the game. Or it's just economically stupid (and the brewers can rationalize it with any pretentious "appreciation of the arts" bullshit as long as they want) because they're consciously alienating a larger demographic. Also, when did Hamburg become hipster central? That's more of a punk city. And Winterhude yuppies =/= hipsters.

I also think it's super irrelevant whether people try things on their own or whether someone introduces them to something. In fact, I think with peer groups introducing it may actually be more effective. To quote a behavioral scientist:"People rarely change themselves. Groups change people all the time."

 

@bartlebierle @einhorn @Akerstache @Lurchus

Thanks for your thoughtful posts concerning the burgeoning German "craft" movement. It will indeed be interesting how "craft" beer matures in Germany. Lots of moving parts here.

It will be interesting to see how Stone - Berlin influences things both from a price perspective but from other perspectives as well.

Exciting times!!

Cheers!

 

I'm actually very interested to see whether Stone will be recreating historical styles.

 

It is always possible Greg Koch might change his mind but it seems that brewing older German styles is presently not the plan:

“No, we don't have any plans to make any traditional beers, with the one 'possible' exception mentioned earlier in the thread. We're going to go brew beers of the styles we're best known for.”

http://www.beeradvocate.com/communi...one-brewing-berlin.297655/page-3#post-3716400

Cheers!

 

Well, it definitely makes sense that they're not going to do that right then and there when they're starting out - I mean that could backfire quite a bit. I was wondering more whether they'd do that a few years down the road when they've consolidated their place in the market.

Either way, I'm fine with what they'll be doing. Particularly if I can get my hands on some affordable Levitation 6-packs. Plus now I have another excuse to go visit a friend in Berlin.

 

"Craft" meets street beer culture. Taken from Eulchen's website. Mainz, Germany. Love the picture of the elderly ladies having their hipster beer on the street.

 

What!?!

They don't carry proper glassware in their bags?

Prost to those ladies!!

 

This being Mainz, i bet they only carry a Dubbeglas for wine in their bags- not fancy enough for hipster beer! And some fancy "hipster craft" is being made in Mainz these days, while the traditional vineyards there make good, yet simple,honest and affordable wine-which is cheaper than the craft beer sometimes...
Anyway, I love this picture, reminds me of the ladies at Schlenkerla or Spezial..

 

If I could just get my dad off his "RHG" and "you don't know what's in there/chemicals"-horse..

 

I can tell you what got my father to stop drinking mainstream beer: I started homebrewing. I would occasionally bring him some homebrew so he had some beer variety to drink. After a number of years he actually stopped drinking mainstream beer and requested me to bring more homebrewed beer.

Hmm, maybe it wouldn’t be a good idea for you to start homebrewing!?!

Cheers!

 

FYI

There's a new craft brewery opening up in Rambin on the Isle of Rügen.
The former Störtebeker Brewmaster is involved.

http://www.insel-brauerei.de/

 

Oooh, I'll be in Heidelberg this weekend - thanks for this and other tips!