eBay and Beer Sales

A number of people have brought up the fact that laws were being broken by eBay in allowing beer to be sold on their site. While that may be true, I'd assume that most BA's are not in favor of those laws and many that are out there only to benefit the big wholesalers or brewers. If the wholesalers had their way, on-line beer stores would be the next to go. Let's hope they do not win on that issue. Maybe we ought to have a separate forum on BA regarding beer laws so BA's can advocate for laws that benefit our community. Cheers!

 

Please don't hate me for playing devil's advocate here...

I'm not a lawyer, so please don't take this seriously and feel free to correct where I'm wrong, but legally speaking I don't see how eBay was breaking any laws. The disclaimers were there for a reason to protect eBay, the seller & the buyer from breaking the law. Without physical evidence proving that someone was buying beer with the intent of consumption (although pretty much common sense by BA's here, just read through this thread), I don't see how anything they were doing broke the law. (Although I'm not sure the disclaimers would hold up in court). I just don't see how eBay would allow it unless it FIRST went through their legal team to approve beer bottle collectibles category. For those that simply state, "It's illegal to ship beer without a license, has to be signed for by an adult over 21." well you don't KNOW whether all eBay sellers are licensed to ship do you? That could have been easily fixed by eBay just asking each seller in that category to provide a license # for record as well as verified the age of the bidder with the legal age to buy alcohol.

A couple things would have to be proven:
If the seller didn't check ID for age verification, that would be illegal, but eBay disclaimer said they would.
If the seller didn't have a license to ship alcohol, that would be illegal, but eBay disclaimer said the seller/buyer would abide by the state laws.
If the buyer consumed the resold (not bartered) bottle of beer, that would be illegal, but the disclaimer says you're just buying the bottle and that what's inside is merely incidental.
The bottle should NOT be available retail stores or online retail, this would be easy to verify/check, and in my mind would classify a bottle as a rare collectible or vintage item.

I'm pretty sure trading violates 2 out of 3 "laws".

With all that said, YES, I'm fully aware 99.99% of all beer auctions on eBay are probably intended to be consumed, I'm just saying without that sort of evidence (is common sense evidence?), there's nothing technically illegal about it, even though there are more than likely illegal buying/consumption happening, and it kind of sounds like the reason we KNOW it's happening is because some BA's are the ones buying!

To be completely honest, I think we're all just a little upset at the high-prices demanded on eBay hyping up and taking beer out of the beer advocates hands and putting it in those with the deepest wallets, driving demand up on our trades that aren't necessarily fair or just. On the flip-side I think that certain breweries (Hill Farmstead & Alpine) can easily expand, they just choose to do it at a slower pace or don't have expanding in their business plan. It can be done, just look at The Bruery, in 4 short years, they've been able to (for the most part) keep up supply to meet demand, retain high standards for their beer, and make it readily available in many markets.

Glad to have a open discussion here, and please don't take this all too seriously.

And I like TheBigEast's idea about discussing beer laws on the dockets.

Here's a start:
http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/current-issues

 

This.

 

People are already finding ways around the new policy. You can buy a list of beers for sale from one dude. Just a list. You can still sell empty bottles. What's stopping anyone from throwing up an empty bottle for a picture but actually sending out full ones?

 

craigslist.org will suffice in the interim. There are always a few beers/collections of beers on there at all times.

 

There is so much hate on trading lately, from my perspective, I don't see it. I have probably traded with 20 or so different people and every trade I had was positive. My experience doesn't match up with some of the negativity on here. Also, I have trade with new traders too, too many people on here make it seem like rocket science, never had a problem with anyone new either. It's just buying a beer and using some common sense when sticking it in a box. Some people make it seem like you need years of experience to stick beer in a box.

 

Thanks, and sorry. I see where you are coming from with your concept that as a community member the best way to advocate a beer is to not hoard it or scalp it. However, I disagree that the value of a beer is what you see on the receipt. The value of a beer is contextual. It's determined entirely by what someone is willing to pay for it. That's not an endorsement of eBay inflation or scalping, it's just an accurate observation of economic principles. For my part, I admire everyone who truly wants the best for the craft beer community at large, and I see why locals are bummed when their lines are full of re-sellers and hoarders, but that beer is still going to end up in the hands of someone who will love it and savor it and be changed by it, even if they got it by spending 3x the sticker price on eBay. Good for the community? Perhaps not in the short run. But in the long run it means more exposure for rare beers, more knowledge for distant enthusiasts, and hopefully more production in future releases.

Another concept struck me when I was re-reading this thread last night... I bet I'm not the first to draw the parallel between the craft beer industry of today and the wine industry of the 70s-80s. You can see a lot of it already: Russian River, the Bruery, HF, FFF become the Kosta Browne, Verite, Rafanelli... the "very high quality with very limited availability." I think that these high-end breweries that want to stay small are going to use the same tricks that worked for their wine counterparts: select distribution to a handful of high end outlets and club memberships. The Bruery is already ahead of the game with it's membership option. It works great for the wine industry and I'm confident the beer industry isn't far behind.

That doesn't mean it's a good thing for beer lovers. You have to spend a ton of money to get your hands on those high end wines by joining the wine clubs. It's a shift towards elitism. Still, it's a good thing for the breweries, and it's bound to become more commonplace.

 

I thought that's what the craft beer culture was trying to avoid, hence why everyone's up in arms about it. I agree with you though that's where it's headed unless we support those willing to share the love... like Founder's tripling production of KBS and GI increasing production of BCBS.... we have options on where we place our money.

 

I agree with you that most enthusiasts will lose out in the long run. Some of the things they know and love will be lost to a handful of club members, and others will be twice the price (or more) than they are now. Like I said earlier:

Still, a certain portion of the breweries are destined to follow this route anyhow, as they can make a good business out of limited production and higher prices. Exclusivity sells, at least to a portion of consumers with a lot of money. On the other side of the coin, Russian River made enough Beatification this year that it lasted for weeks, and like you mentioned above other breweries are finally expanding production of certain beers to help meet the enormous demand. Maybe I'll be to try some BCBS this year :-D

 

There will always be leakage, but those types of scenarios are going to be tiny. And if they somehow get out of hand, Ebay can lock them down too.

Plus - would you really take the chance on buying an auction for an empty bottle and just hoping it would be full?

Not likely happening. An Ebay-like auction infrastructure is monstrous for such a niche hobby. Then you have all the legalities, and the fraud, etc, etc. I think the best you'll see is a craigslist-like flat listing service geared around sales, and not auctions.

 

I think its ridiculous that some people are crying over this. It is an easy way to obtain rare beers or any beer for that matter. If someone is willing to pay those inflated prices, who is anyone to bitch about it? It's always the ones who miss out of a bottle release than cry over it when someone sells it on ebay for XX amount of dollars. It's not fair they say, The seller is just making a profit,,,SO WHAT!! The seller purchased the beer, he is now the owner of said beer, he can do it with it as he wishes, and if that means selling it for close to $200 and some jackass buys it, again, so what, not my money and I dont care. My problem is with Shaun Hill bragging about this on his FB, he deletes my post of, "what if he received a part of the sale, would it still be an issue?" My post got deleted, big man wants to run his mouth but will not answer a simple question. He makes great beer, but I think he fits in with the cry babies.

 

you seem capable of being level-headed and mature about this topic. i am surprised he wouldn't engage you.

 

If that person (former ebay beerseller) wants to move that beer maybe he will trade it fairly for something you have.

 

Actually I was level headed. I didn't berate him or bash him. I simply asked a question of "What if he received compensation from those sales?" He has no problem going about saying how bad it is, he received free press, tv coverage, just answer my question. Fan of the beer not the man.

 

Did they have Craft Beards? (tm)

 

hahaha, of course.

 

Hypothetically, if someone bought an empty bottle from me on ebay, that is exactly what I would send him or her.

 

If there were no Stub Hub and Ticket Bastard one could order tickets cheaper from box offices, and benefit more directly and profitably both the artist and venue. Tickets would still be sold by scalpers in the lots and by the venues on show date, of course, but the trafficing would be of a much reduced level, as it once was. We don't need to wonder how things will be without ebay beer sellers, we can look to the past.

I'm not here to argue legality, I am here to argue for what I selfishly want, breweries to make the lions' share of the profit, and my self to get beer more easily and cheaply.

 

Hello All
My name is Dan, and I am the assistant brewer at Hill Farmstead. I want to clear some things up for those of you who are calling for an end to "limited releases." Some of our Barrel aged beers that we bottle (eg. Damon) were full batches of beer, yet the demand was high enough to fetch absurd prices on ebay. I don't know what we could have done to make them less "limited." This year, we brewed around 4X the amount of Damon that we released last year, yet some people will still call Hill Farmstead brewery out for not brewing enough beer. We still need to keep Edward on tap, after all. We have increased our brew house capacity to a 15 bbl system this year to try to meet more demand, but I am unapologetic about working for a small brewery which brews a wide array of beers. Maybe people may misconstrue this as us "hyping" our beers by releasing what some perceive to be a small amount of bottles.
One of the reasons we have bottle release days is because space is limited at our brewery (most breweries, actually). If we want to continue bottling at a decent clip, we need to sell some bottles to make space for the next bottles in the rotation. This is not our overt attempt at hyping the beer.
Thanks for drinking the beer and supporting a brewer such as myself..cheers!