eBay and Beer Sales

Beer really isn't a collectable, it's a consumable, and it's mostly perishable. You could make a better point about collect ability with Scotch or Wine, Brandy whatever, products that will last 100 years.

I work in the art market, and EBAY was destroyed value of expensive Lithographs, Serigraphs and the like, only original art will really stand up. Why? Easy availability, artwork previously only available from distributors or gallery's are on EBAY and other auction places for sometimes 1/10 th of the gallery price. We've bought art to resell from these places, art we sell for $1200 re received shipped to door for 125 bucks.Easy how some things are completely reversed.

 

Ok, I have read maybe 30% of the posts in this thread. I started reading, feeling that I did not have a problem with people selling on Ebay, as I could see the free market perspective. I discounted the legality of it, not sure why, maybe just because I don't really think laws on shipping alcohol as being appropriate...maybe just a tad too much government oversight in this area (IMO). To try to solidify and validate my opinions, I have been thinking what other similar situations in other exist that would parallel the beer situation on Ebay. One that that I thought of (not sure if this has been raised or not, did not read all 600+ posts) is the auctions of items in the antique market. Specifically situations where the people obtain antique items at a below auction rate solely for the purpose of being able to sell them at a profit. For example, the people that go to tag sales, hoping to find something real rare and where the seller has no idea that it's rare, something that they can pay a few bucks for and then turn around and sell it for thousands. Another example are shows like American Pickers, where people rummage through other people's shit, find stuff of value and pay the owner a below market price, just so they can take it to auction or antique dealers to turn a big profit. Both of these situations have always rubber me the wrong way.

While these two situations do not perfectly mirror the beer/Ebay issue, it does offer a some similarities, as they are situations where someone is buying a product that they know that they can sell for much more to a select group of wealthy people who are willing to pay top dollar for such rare items. I think what bothered me is that someone who has absolutely nothing to do with producing the items is going to flip the product for great profits. I know in the antique market (whether tag sale or American Pickers), that the first seller clearly did not produce it either, but they bought it at retail value years ago when the item was new and now they are not able to fully realize the true value of the item, either because they do not know that the item is valuable or because they don't know how to capitalize on the value (i.e., no access to the right dealers, not knowing who the dealers are, no access auctions). Also, the item is now an antique, not the item that was purchased 30 years ago, so maybe the first seller did add value by owning the item for 30 years and keeping it in good condition and not throwing it out 25 years ago.

I know this is not a perfect comparison, but it is really the only one that I could think of that helped me think about the beer/ebay situation. To sum it up, these are my issues with these situations:
1. The original producer does not share in the profits made by the person taking it to auction.
2. The person taking the product to auction did nothing to add value to the product.
3. This top dollar market for rare items is only set by a limited number of relativity wealthy individuals, not the general public, for whom the items was originally produced for.

So, in the end, I think that this analogy has changed my opinion. The issues noted above, just don’t sit well with me and helped me see why people have issues with Ebay.

 

buy folks with lots of cash buying a cellar full has nothing to do with ebay selling something that is illegal to sell, under current law. Don't get me started on folks with a 1000's beer laying around.

 

buy low and sell high aint that the american way? works in the stock market quite well. knowledge is power.

 

I just noticed a key sentence, and I wanted to clarify. For the record, I'm not arguing either for or against ebay. I'm just commenting on how I view what has been happening in the craft beer industry.

 

What if people are collecting it rather than consuming it, does that not make it a collectible? Sure, the intent of the brewer is for the beer to be consumed, but what makes something a collectible is peoples desire to collect it, regardless of the manufacturers intent. The intent of a car manufacturer is for their cars to be driven, that doesn't stop people from collecting cars.

 

That would be true by definition, but collecting a perishable renders it useless and worthless with time. Then the collectable is what EBAY actually promoted, the value would be in the value of the unopened bottle or can not the contents. When the value of the contents is rendered useless and the buyer would or might consider it tainted or too risky to buy it then has little value. Would you buy a bottle of 6 year old Pliny? 10 year old Pliny? Would you consider a 20 year old Cabernet collectable? A 50 year old bottle of Port Ellen Islay Whisky? A 50 year old McCallen might be worth thousands of dollars. Beer won't follow suit because it is perishable, you can age Stouts obviously, anyone consumed a 20 year old bottle of a RIS?

 

1. I don't understand why this is an issue - if it is, then reselling of anything, ever, be damned (auctions, garage sales, Goodwill, etc.).

2. The person obtained the product, kept it secured in a suitable storage environment, and then set up a compliant auction - all of which required the person's time, energy, and know how. Furthermore, the person is making the product available to anyone in the country who has internet access and a doorstep to which the product will be delivered. All of that adds significant value to the product.

3. Lol, the items (craft beers) are NOT intended for the "general public!" The general public wants beer: cheap, as much as possible, and often in a "lite" format. No sir, we all are not the "general public." The general public has no interest in beer release dates; the nuances of this year's Dark Lord compared to last year's; reading or writing beer reviews; having tastings; Barleywine vs. IIPA; and (NO interest in) paying more than ten dollars for a single bottle of beer.

And, as I believe many here would suggest, it is the true connoisseurs—those who are the most passionate about craft beer—that are the ones paying top dollar for the rarest / most desired items; they aren't necessarily the wealthiest. While my coworker and I may have equal yearly earnings, and we each spend approximately 20% of our disposable income on our hobbies, our passion. He restores classic muscle cars, whereas I consume, compare, and collect craft beer.

My intent here was to provide additional perspectives on the issues pjs234 laid out. I hope I have.

 

States, such as Florida, lose not only the sales tax, but also the "sin tax" revenue from the sale. If single bottles were allowed, so would shipments of larger quantities. Same with cigarettes. Lots of taxes lost, and the politicians and other lawmakers won't budge on that.

 

What you're saying about shelf life may be true in many cases, but clearly that's not stopping people from collecting beer. There are many items they have no inherent value that people still collect, in fact the majority of collectibles have no inherent value, so to the collector the perishability of the contents are irrelevant. In other words the fact that the beer in these bottles is likely to be swill in 10 years isn't stopping people from filling their cellars with hundreds or thousands of bottles, lining them up on shelves and snapping "****" shots of them to share with the other collectors.

As you said much of the beer in these bottles will be worthless in a few years as far as consumption is concerned, yet people still continue to seek out and purchase more than they can consume in a reasonable amount of time. This would appear to me to be by definition collecting, what would you call it?

 

It's only valued enough to collect, because it's something rare/wanted. If it tasted like shit, people wouldn't want it, hype wouldn't happen, and the "collectable" wouldn't be worth the refund on the glass bottle.

Would someone who "collects" be okay with me getting something like a Dark Lord. I'll drink it, because I want the beer, I'll fill it with used motor oil. Cap it, clean it, wax it.. Then put it on the market. If someones no going to consume it, for all intents and purposes, it's filled, sealed, and appears normal. If it's sitting on a shelf, it's still collectable right?

Somehow I doubt ANYONE would pay the price they are going for, for a bottle that didn't have the beer in it. It's valued only for the beer.

Just because someone collects, not for the contents, it's value is there because SOMEONE will want it for the contents.

 

Hoarding. If it's worthless as far as consumption, then it's not worth having. If you keep it around, it's then just hoarding garbage.

 

I'm not a hoarder but this is what I might call this. Collecting a live product at top value then letting it die is senseless, but so is hoarding crap, which IMO this would seem like a solid definition. I can understanding let something like KBS age for 2-3 years then you drink it and enjoy it, thinking that same KBS would be good 20 years later seems nonsensical. Why anyone would pay 150 bucks for a BCBC Rare and not drink it in a reasonable time frame seems absurd, you can't cellar beer like it's wine or scotch. Reasonably anyway.

 

I cannot figure out why you want to have all that beer, but some I assume work in the industry and get it given to them? but many actually buy all this beer and have a cellar, maybe its just for the beer ****? No way even if someone gave me 100 beers they stay UN-drunk for more than 30 days tops! Most likely even less if they were all whales. i think those that do, never seem to drink them maybe its because that are in it for the ego and not the beer? who knows there are some strange folks out there in beer land.

 

Right, and keep it consumable. Wine's been proven to age beautifully for over 100 years, high end rare scotches that are 50-75 years old increase in value at and incredible rate, I've seen Scotch listed at 8K a bottle. People have legitimate wine cellars and scotch racks, but buying beer and thinking your going to age it for 15-20 years would be new to me. High end Absinth from Pernod maybe circa 1890 early 1900''s sell for thousands an ounce.

 

Agreed. I have beer around my house that is old by some definition, like 2 year max on some stouts. I drink them though.

But I think most people get beer, especially here, to just gloat about what they have, and most buy beers just to trade them. Buy all the special release shit you can get, to turn around and sell, or trade them for other special shit that you then in turn trade again to get something even more rare.

While I can see the allure of getting beers you can't get in your area, I think most just get them to say they had them, not really drink them.

 

You clearly don't understand the collector mentality, inherent value is meaningless to a true collector. I dabble in vintage video games and the hard core game collectors want all their games in factory sealed boxes. Is this because one day they're going to open the game and play it? No, it's because they want to have something rare and hard to find and be able to say "look at all these rare factory sealed games I have in mint condition!". Does the person who collects factory sealed barbie dolls for thousands of dollars each plan on one day opening all the boxes and playing with them? No, they don't, just as someone who collects rare beer isn't thinking about the fact that in 5 years most of their collection will taste like swill, they just want to go down into their basement and see shelves and shelves of rare beer that they've worked to amass.

Again, poor understanding of the collector mentality. If someone collects original vintage cars would they be ok with you switching out the engine in a car and trying to sell it as an original? No, the collector wants the item in original factory sealed condition if at all possible.

Then why do people have cellars full of thousands of bottles that they'll never be able to drink in a reasonable amount of time?

 

One mans hoarding is another mans collecting. An item does not have to have inherent value for it to be a collectable. People "hoard" things that have no inherent value all the time in the name of collecting, and they pay big bucks for the items too. Collecting beer that will taste like crap in 5 years is no different than collecting any other useless object. It's no different than what the baseball card market used to be, what's the inherent value of a baseball card? The answer is nothing yet it used to be a million dollar industry.

 

Yet people are still doing it. There's no shortage of people with cellars full of more beer than they'll be able to drink in a reasonable amount of time.

 

I don't see why locals are generally more "worthy" of getting a brewery's beer -- those people are just lucky to live near a great brewery, in most cases, unless they move to a city for that purpose -- than the person who buys a beer on eBay or trades for it. Regardless, keeping things largely on local draft is probably the easiest way for breweries to eliminate much of those "issues."