Okay , from Chad's power point: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ • Original nomenclature: – Brettanomyces bruxellensis – Brettanomyces lambicus – Brettanomyces intermedius – Brettanomyces custersii – Brettanomyces claussenii – Brettanomyces anomalus ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Current nomenclature: – Brettanomyces bruxellensis* – Brettanomyces anomalus* – Brettanomyces custersianus – Brettanomyces naardenensis – Brettanomyces nanus and for the perfect state (teleomorph) – Dekkera bruxellensis – Dekkera anomala ~~~~~~~and~~~~~~~~ *B. lambicus has since been reclassified as a B. bruxellensis and B. claussenii as B. anomalus. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Okay makes sense. But.... WLP653 Brettanomyces lambicus WLP650 Brettanomyces bruxellensis So why aren't these the same strain? Unfortunately I have more questions.
The problem is just because something has been classified as brux or anomlus, doesnt mean anything practically to us brewing when thinking of flavor profiles etc. (maybe from a microbiology strandpoint and understanding specific details of fermentation, but this is a level of detail that most homebrewers dont dive into) the named strains from WY/WL are just names, they help us identify them It may be that the lambicus, brux, and claus from WL are actually all strains of brettanomyces bruxellensis, it doesnt really matter All normal ale yeasts are sacch cerevisiae, yet there are hundreds of different strains for use, while all Lager yeasts are sacch pastorianus. If suddenly cal lager 2112 was reclassified from pastorianus to cerevisiae, would you even care? do you think WY would change the name? No, simply because they are selling a product, to change a name after its been in use for years would confuse people and potentially lose them sales
Thanks, I know that you've tried to help me before with this and I do appreciate it. It's just that as I read other peoples note they suggest fermenting one strain at one temp and another strain a bit warmer. And this strain with give this flavor profile, etc. I know that it's up to me to decide on what parameters I think is best, but I'd like to have a baseline to start. I guess that I should just email WY/WY and ask.
As ryane said, think about all the ale strains. They are all Sacc cerivisiae but there are different recommended temperature profiles for each and each gives different character. The same is true of brett but there isn't as wide a variety available as there is for normal ale or lager yeasts. If the strain called Brett lambicus is really a strain of Brett bruxellensis that doesn't change the fact that the two produce yeasts, one labelled lambicus and the other bruxellensis, produce different character in the same way that american ale and abbey ale produce different character. As for fermentation parameters, chad and the mad fermentationist (including their interviews with brewing podcasts) are good resources but not as much work has been done on brett so it might be up to you to experiment.
FYI, they're not strains, they're species. Different types of ale yeasts are different strains of the same species, whereas different types pf Brett are each a different species, not strains of the same species. Sorry, the biologist in me cannot let it go.
Yes and No. Wyeast and White Labs sell five strains between them marketed as Brett Lambicus or Brett Brux, these are all strains of the same species (Brettanomyces bruxellensis). There is even more intra-species variation in Brett than ale yeast. I just bottled a Belgian pale/single over the weekend (originally based on one of your recipes) that was split between four different strains of Brett B (Wyeast Brett B, White Labs Trois, and two strains isolated from Cantillon by Jason of http://sciencebrewer.com/) at bottling. Interested to see how they compare in a few months.
If lambicus was reclassified as a brux then that's true, these would be different strains of the same species, but for example, brux and anomalus would not be different strains of Brett, they'd be different species.
Exactly, still a constantly shifting landscape. Even since Chad's presentation Brettanomyces nanus has been reclassified to a completely different genus, Eeniella nana.
Not surprising the nomenclature shifts so much. Even from a microbiological standpoint (plating on differential media) it is impossible to define different species of Brett. One needs to go in the molecular realm, genetically amplify highly conserved yeast genes (such as ribosomal proteins), and compare to various benchmarks. Only when this is done and there is significant variation can it be called a different species in my opinion. If one bug grows on a chemical while another doesn't, its not enough to differentiate species in my opinion. Even with the two strains that Mike mentioned above, my guess at first was Brett L, which is now Brett B. Now I'm not so sure. I know they belong in the Brett genus based on morphology and aroma/flavor profile, but species? Who knows. BTW, Mike, how did the bottling turn out? When do you expect to sample? Get a whiff from the opened tubes (after you inoculated of course)? I need to write up a post about this soon. J
Let me ask this a more practical way. I'll list what I can buy. WLP644* Brettanomyces bruxellensis Trois WLP645 Brettanomyces claussenii WLP650 Brettanomyces bruxellensis WLP653 Brettanomyces lambicus WY5112 Brettanomyces bruxellensis WY5526 Brettanomyces lambicus Regard less of the name, is what's in the vial/package a strain? I guess at that is really want to know right now. For instance Brettanomyces bruxellensis I'm being told is a species. Is the label a legacy name and only one strain is choosen? Or does the vial really contain multiple strains? I hope that I'm getting this, I don't want to frustrate anyone.
Actually, this was suggested in 1981. Shifting landscape indeed. http://ijs.sgmjournals.org/content/31/2/196.full.pdf+html
So, in my opinion, Brettanomyces is a genus, but they are still figuring out the nomenclature. Unfortunately, you're not going to get a straight answer. The name suggests different species, not strains, but again this hotly debated. Best way to think about it is different strains with ale yeast that give different flavor characteristics. For example, Brett B/L might have a more cherry pie flavor/sourness, while Brett C may be more phenolic. For my two strains/species that I found I call them CB-1 and CB-2. Also, for what it is worth, keep in mind that the "wild" factor in these strains are not as we make it out to be. These have cultured and banked for a very long time. J
Thanks. Yes, I understand the first part. And since I'm under the impression that if I'm getting multiple strains that I'll get more complexity. On the second part, I remember in oldstock's blog him talking about WL taming his yeast. "Well here it is, my first batch fermented with nothing but wild yeast (well at least it used to be wild before White Labs got ahold of it, stuck it in a test tube and sent it to me).". Which brings me to another subject: starters. Chad talks about when he made his starters he goes longer than a typical starter, 14 days? Anyway the yeast would go through three growth periods. I assume that while eating food(s) other than the typical sugars that they were learning how to be wild again. One could only hope. I might do a test with making a multi-step up starter by crashing the Brett after the first growth stage. And another with less steps (trying to keep cell counts close) but longer propagation periods. For my single Brett beer to date I used WLP644, which I believe is packaged as a secondary fermentation yeast with half the cell count. I only did one step up that was on the stir plate for about ten days. I ended up with (at least visually) more cell that I thought that I would of.
Really smooth. Tubes smelled nicely funky, which is a good thing because the knock against my first batch from the final round judges was not enough funk. For the first batch last year, a triangle test at a month could pick out a difference between Brett and non-Brett, but I guessed wrong which was which (oddly). Probably two months before I give them a serious taste, I’ll check carbonation right before I have a cool enough week to send you bottles.
