Armand'4 and Golden Blend

This seems similar to the endless back-and-forth in the wine-geek world with regards to aging Champagne - unlike just about any other type of wine, there's been arguments made for storing Champagne standing upright. What the rationales for this are, I couldn't really tell you, as I didn't really collect all that much age-worthy Champagne back in my wine-centric phase, so never really paid much attention to the debate. I just know that the debate exists there too, and I don't believe there's anything remotely approaching a general consensus there either.

 

Huh. Apparently they've actually done a study. And I think the rationale there would apply to C&C beers as well (and probably any corked beer). Interesting, I wonder if there's more info on that out there. 3k bottles is quite the same size, although their methodology might leave a lot to be desired in terms of judging the results.

 

Rad, I have a two year old as well and I've been stockpiling bottles from 2010 to drink on various Logan related special occasions. I also have some Drie Fontienen and J.W. Lees stuff that I'm contemplating on saving for his 21st-ish birthday.

 

Before I lay down for the evening...

I never said that I do it because, "that's the way it's done in Belgium." I do it because the old bottles that I've received, mostly in coincidence from Belgium, have been stored that way and have been a SUCCESS.

You obviously didn't read my comments and likely just want to argue. I DO have experience with upright-stored bottles that have been capped. My one bottle that was capped and stored on the side from 1982 was more successful than any other bottles from that time, with the exception of Stille Nacht (from the same brewery). Also, building on you not reading what I said and just wanting to argue, I never claimed above that it is "absolutely better" to store bottles upright. I suggested that, based on my experience, I've had a very high success rate with old bottles that were stored on their sides. I did say that the OP should "probably" store them laying down.

As for the Sour and Bitter comment, you're claiming that the old bottles served (such as Millennium) were stored this entire time upright? Or are you just claiming that they were stored upright closer to the festival and transported in that manner in order to bring the sedimentation to the bottom of the bottles?

 

Seriously though, this is a pointless argument. Both sides have been told 500 times. The OP is just asking if he should keep his Armand'4 set for his kid. I think you and I can both probably agree that he should. Now that there are no more replies in the ISO/FT forums, what we are doing here is probably the new "threadshitting".

Edit - sorry, he's also asking about GB. And BT'10.

 

My point is just that unless you've had a corked bottle that was stored upright that doesn't matter. For all you know bottles stored upright would have been better. I also didn't necessarily mean that's what you were saying (though it did seem like it), people have literally said that before.

Well that's just uncalled for.

How is having had bad luck with capped bottles stored upright relevant to the question of how to store C&C 3F beers? I'm reading what you're saying, I'm just saying that it's not relevant here. Besides, I've had old beers that (I believe) were stored upright and they were fine. Personal experience means nothing with this question unless you've had several bottles of the same vintages from the same cellar stored in different ways. If you don't have that you have NOTHING.

I have no idea. All I know is they were upright right there. Believe it or not I don't really care how my bottles were stored, which is sort of my entire point here.

This isn't threadshitting, this is actually productive. This is a question that gets asked all the time. Having an actual discourse about it is useful for lots of people. Also, I think you misunderstand me, I'm not on a side. I'm the guy standing on the sidelines saying that everyone is wrong. My position is that we are ignorant and people claiming otherwise don't have a leg to stand on, scientifically. Saying "I've only ever had things stored on their side and they tasted fine" is perfectly fine, but then saying "therefore you should store on your side" is not.

I am genuinely curious here and not being antagonistic or anything:
1) What experience?
2) Why are you laying down capped beers? By what mechanism does that help aging?

 

Like I suggested, you seem to just want to argue about it. Having experience does mean something. Theory is as good as the definition until it is tested. I've had countless positive horizontal storage experiences, I will choose to follow my positive results. If you want to age your bottles upright for the long run, go for it.

Also, please stop putting words in my mouth. Just because I take a point of view shouldn't immediately imply that I agree with the reasoning of ever other person who takes my stance.

 

That's the thing, it really doesn't. That's like saying "I've had positive experiences buttering the bottom of my toast, why try the top?" If you've never tried the alternative then you really don't know which is better! (And yes, I deliberately chose a silly example and Dr. Seuss reference to highlight a case where it doesn't make a difference.) I really don't know what your theory line means, do you have a theory of why one is better than the other? Because you haven't given any. And the link up there about champagne gave pretty good theoretical reasons to believe upright is better, provided their methodology is sound (I've asked for whatever documentation they have since I couldn't find anything in 30 seconds googling, hopefully they have a good paper on it).

Now I'm wondering if you're reading what I'm writing, I really never did that.

 

Haha

 

This link actually claims that the vapor pressure provides enough protection, and that exposure liquid increases oxygen transport through the cork: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_storage#Orientation_of_the_bottle. And like I said before, all the experience in the world doesn't mean anything if the person hasn't tried the alternative.

 

if i had a ton of bottles and a ton of space, i'd age them lying down, simply for ease of accessing them. at present, i age bottles upright in wine boxes (not a ton of space, and not a ton of bottles).

i highly doubt it makes a big difference either way. temperature on the other hand, that one's a big deal.

edit: p.s.

re: argument you guys are having,

1) 100% "success rate" aging on their side with 0 bottles tested aging upright is exactly as much evidence that "aging on its side is better [in any way at all] than aging upright," as testing 0 bottles either way.

2) if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

(shrug) yeah in my skimming i see snippets of you all touching base with each other, but it does seem like a lot of "arguing past each other" is happening.

i will say, if it makes a difference in "the argument" or even touches it at all:

while, say, 50 trials SIDE vs 0 trials UPRIGHT proves nothing about SIDE vs UPRIGHT, 50 good experiences SIDE really is a good reason to suggest SIDE when someone asks for advice.

cf homebrew thread questions where someone replies "i have a lot of experience doing it X way and i love it, so i'd suggest that." it's not a fallacy or anything; it's saying "well, X *is* a tried and true way, so i'd say go ahead and do that."

once someone comes out and starts arguing the other way though (shrug). believe whoever you find the most credible, test whatever's under discussion out for yourself if you really want to be sure.

(not that the kind of sample size any of us could provide on our own would decide such a question anyway, so it's hard to see why people would argue...)

 

No, I'm bent on proving that no one actually knows which is better, or at least getting someone to put forth a rationale for why one way is actually better. If that fits with proving you wrong, then sure, I guess that's what I'm doing.

The problem is that, for almost everyone, aging on the side requires either building or buying something to accommodate it. Without any kind of evidence that that expenditure is worth it suggesting that someone ages on the side is basically telling them to waste money.

As far as I'm concerned the only advice you can actually give on this is, "No one really knows which is better, aging on its side has a long track record but requires more preparation, do whichever is easier for you."

 

Shrug. Your first post heavily implied, though didn't actually state, that your experience said that storing on its side was better, which it doesn't. If all you're saying is "I've never had a problem with it so I'm going to keep doing it this way" then fine, whatever. But every time I see that I'm going to say "That doesn't tell you anything about whether doing it upright is fine, and since we have no good theoretical reason to believe storing upright is problematic (and apparently good theoretical reasons to believe it's better) then any given person should do whatever is more convenient/aesthetic for them."

 

Anyways, I like Golden Blend. Wish I had any bottles so I further complicate this seemingly non-argument.

 

My personal experiences:
-I have consumed hundreds of bottles of lambic in my life. some have been stored upright for most of their life, others have been stored laying down.
-I have roughly 300 bottles of lambic in my cellar... all stored upright, I've never had a bad bottle come out of my cellar that wasn't the result of the lambic, in general, not being good.
-Storing upright is more convenient for me... easier for me to store, easier for me keep track of, easier for me to pick a bottle and drink nearly immediately.
-The Armands and Golden Blend are delicious. Drink one of each now, store at least one of each in your cellar, drink periodically.

 

Build a custom shelf? But if someone cares that much then it's probably no big deal.

 

The best reason to store a Lambic on its side is simple: side storage allows you to transfer the bottle to a basket and pour it with minimal disturbance to the sediment.

Lambic baskets are awesome.
Clear pours are awesome.
The super funky, super concentrated dregs that you can get from the last couple ounces are awesome.

All of this awesomeness is aided by side storage, and therefore side storage is optimal.

 

I think that my basket is the best thing I brought back from Belgium.

 

Half of my lambics are stored on their sides...the other half are stored inverted in a vacuum, all spinning like tops. Lambics taste better when dregs are centripetally agitated...