Good vienna lagers

It warms my heart to see a 3+ page thread on BA on a beer style that isn't about IPAs or barrel aged beers.

 

I don't read the first ingredients list as not having caramel malt in it (never had the beer myself, so I can't judge if it changed dramatically). It says "American Two-row malts," which could easily mean American 2-row, 2-row caramel, and 2-row Munich (or Vienna). Since "Malts" is plural, I'm assuming they must have used at least two different malts, if not three or more. Those two recipes could be nearly identical, with only minor tweaks in the hops used.

 

Was at a bar with some people and was drinking a Sam Adams Lager and one of the individuals couldn't decide on a beer (no general craft options) and I told her to taste mine, she was hooked, ended up drinking it all nite and then gave me their winter sampler for Christmas. Very drinkable style the goes with any type of food

 

Fair enough.

Just a bit confusing since for the Oct. 2014 version they made the effort to itemize: “Malts: American Two-row, Caramel, Munich”.

Maybe they just prefer to be non-specific for the majority of the versions?

The current website lists: “Malts: Canadian 2-row”. I suppose there are Canadian sources for Caramel Malt?

Cheers!

 

I think you meant Firebrick -- Vienna Lagers can't be 6%. No, really.

 

Brewers are notoriously specific in their recipes, if it was anything other than 2 Row I'm sure it would have been listed -- just like the second recipe.

 

Hey now, Canada is America.

I'm not sure if that's sarcastic or not, but would it be a Vienna lager if it was just 2-row (assuming we're talking 2-row pale or pilsner)? I think it would be a pilsner or similar pale lager.

 

Not at all -- I'm good with smilies when needed...

Not in my book, but brewers are also notorious in labeling their beer whatever the hell they want (or whatever they think will sell).

 

Just to put things into perspective here is a page from a Swedish brewing journal from november in 1907, the column to the furthest left is the date of the month, the next three columns give the style of beer brewed (lager beer, pilsner, lower gravity lager beer in that order), the fourth gives the tapping date, the next one gives the weight of malt used, the next the weight of hops used, the next the volume brewed in hectoliters, the next the gravity of the beer and the next the degree of attenuation. To the furthest right you have notes for a particular brew. For the brew made on November 9th which was a brew of lager beer of 13% gravity it used 9 ltr, or liters, of karamellmalt, or caramel malt. On November 14th another brew of lager beer of 12.9% original gravity was made with 9 liters of caramel malt. On November 21st another brew of 13% lager beer was made using 6 liters of caramel malt, though the volume produced was also lower, 34½ hectoliters compared with 51 hectoliters for the previous batches.



Here is an advertisement for Weyermann (yes that Weyermann) farbmalz und caramelmalzfabrik (colormalt and caramelmalt factory) from 1923 which came attached with a letter from a wholesaler which had sold 50 kilograms of carapils to the same brewery as in the journal above (by 1923 Swedish beer was capped at 10.5% OG and 4% abv, and the brewery in question used some carapils malt to beef up their lower gravity pilsner, which incidentally was of the same strenght as the standard Bohemian schankbier).


"Several hundred breweries domestic and foreign regularly use:
Weyermann's caramelmalz brand Gambrinus
lends a pleasant, lively flavor, fullness and foam-keeping capability to pale and dark beers, enables malt-savings, delivers high efficiency.

Weyermann's caramelmalz hell brand Gambrinus
is highly recommended for the production of pale beers of a mild flavor

Weyermann's carapils (the palest caramel malt for very pale beers)
contains the smallest coloring properties of caramel malt, is used with great success in the production of very pale beers of a mild flavor.

Weyermann's caramelizsed (debittered) color-malt brand Gambrinus
Has the greatest natural coloring strenght, is free from every bitter and burnt after taste, delivers a not inconsiderable efficiency.

The most advantageous usage:
Caramelmalt- pale caramel malt - carapils: 5-10% of the mash quantity - the amount of brewing malt is reduced accordingly.

Caramelized (debittered) color malt: 2-5% of the mashing quantity, according to the desired dark beer color and the color of the brewing malt - the brewing malt is reduced accordingly"

 

It's also interesting to note that the brewery was using "color malt" for their lager beer in the years prior to 1907, and afterwards as well, so the use of caramel malt represented an experiment of sorts. Color malt, or "farbmalz", was common in Bavarian and Austrian brewing going back to at least the mid 1800s as a coloring malt which was dried in a roasting drum as opposed to in a kiln, and used in small amounts to achieve the desired color. There was much debate as to the benefits of this malt, some viewed it as necessary to give the public what they wanted as far as color went whilst maximising efficiency, whilst others thought the flavor contribution negatively impacted the beer. In this respect it is interesting to follow this brewing journal as it pertains to the Christmas beers, which were higher gravity beers brewed for each Christmas. In some years it is noted in the journal that the beer has a flavor of "färgmalt" or colormalt, with notes in the margins about reducing the amount for next year. The problem of color malt impacting the flavor of the beer can also be seen in the Weyermann advertisement, which focused on the "debittered" farbmalz which supposedly didn't produce a burnt aftertaste (the predecesor of carafa malt, which interestingly was being used by this Swedish brewery in the 1920s for their low-gravity Christmas beer). This was one of the major selling points of caramel malts as far as I've been able to tell, of being able to offer coloring ability without the burnt/acrid flavor of darker roasted coloring malt, even as it had a lower coloring strenght compared with the older dry-roasted coloring malts.

 

Sierra Nevada's seasonal Vienna is quite good.

 

I will set my timer for when the first Canadian BA chimes in!

Paging @AugustusRex?

Cheers!

 

In the NE area, Von Trapp is number 1 with a bullet! That shit is straight delicious. Love when I find it on draft.
Thanks for discussing a style that is often overlooked.

 

I agree with several other posters..Devil's Backbone is my favorite.

 

I want a Sierra Nevada lager twelve-pack: Kolsch (sorta a lager), Vienna, Zwickel/Maibock/Helles/Alt (would be a new product of one of those five styles), and Nooner (instead of SNPA, which usually rounds out these packs).

 

If Canada is America, why do we only have 2-3 American craft brands for sale throughout Ontario?

 

On the topic of styles, I'm often inconsistent. Sometimes I'm strict, sometimes I'm loose... but I think I lean towards common ground. In the case of Vienna Lager vs Oktoberfest Marzen, I'm suspicious of any real differences. I'd be very happy if @Crusader posted slaps to my thick-headedness based on historical research. I suspect that we'll always be dealing with cultural differences in taxonomy... fitting a round peg into a square hole.

I guess the question is this: Are the differences within the spectrum of Oktoberfest Marzens smaller than the differences between the middle-of-the-road interpretations of Oktoberfest Marzens and Vienna Lagers? Oktoberfest Marzens can vary a lot. This thread has already pointed out the flexibility of Munich vs Vienna malt. Are the differences between these styles based on a very specific historical snapshot - perhaps with Dreher and Sedlmayr? Are people formulating opinions on differences based on the portfolio of brewers who want to emphasize difference in order to justify the existence of multiple beers in their lineup... or are people formulating opinions on differences based on the style outlines for a modern brewing competition that wants to give out many, many medals?

 

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/beer-recipe-vienna-lager/

 

I think the complexities is what makes beer history so interesting. If we consider the Vienna Lager and Oktoberfest Märzen we can go back to the early 1800s when in Bavaria there was two main types of bottom fermented beer, schankbier and lagerbier. Lagerbier was also known as Märzenbier. Around 1840 Dreher started brewing his version of a Bavarian lager beer, which became famous in its own right. At some point (I have yet to pin down when) Dreher started to use the term Märzenbier for a higher gravity lager beer. Whereas in Bavaria lagerbier and märzenbier was one and the same, in Austria the term Märzen takes on the meaning of a higher gravity beer which was distinct from "lagerbier". By the early 1870s Joseph Sedlmayr's brewery in Munich was brewing Märzenbier nach Wiener art, Märzenbier in the Vienna style, which means that the distinction between lager beer and märzen beer which had been created in Austria was now being adopted by a brewery in Munich Bavaria. By the early 1900s this Märzenbier (which was indeed higher gravity than the regular Bavarian lager beer, in keeping with the Austrian Märzen) was being brewed by several of the Munich breweries and served at the Oktoberfest. If a regular lager beer was around 13.5-14% OG (both in Bavaria and Austria) this Märzenbier had around 15-16% OG, and was thus a heftier varation of a lager beer. Today the beers served at the Oktoberfest have an OG of around 13.5-14%, which is a typical lager beer strenght from an historical point of view.

There's alot more which could be said about the historical development of lager beer in Bavaria and Austria but I think the story of the wandering Märzenbier is interesting enough to mention on its own.

 

Patrik,

I always enjoy when you post beer history stuff. Please keep it coming!!

Were Vienna Lagers and Märzenbier of comparable alcohol strength in the 1800s?

One of the parameters that I think distinguishes contemporary Vienna Lager from a Marzen is alcohol strength.

For example, from the Brewers Association style guidelines:

· Vienna Lager: 4.8 – 5.4% ABV

· Marzen: 5.1 – 6.0% ABV

It there a time in the beer history timeline where the two styles diverged from each other as regards alcohol strength?

Cheers!

Jack