Designing the perfect German beer homebrewing setup

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Groenebeor, Mar 28, 2016.

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  1. Groenebeor

    Groenebeor Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2009 California

    In my reading (and I can post sources if you really want them) people seem to think the sheer C02 production from those first few days of fermentation are more than enough to prevent any issues. As far as insects, dust, etc. I plan on controlling the temps in a fridge/freezer modified for the task, and/or keeping the lid on, but cracked if necessary.

    Brewing TV has a fun episode on the topic, but of course I'm trying to get more input.

     
    #41 Groenebeor, Mar 28, 2016
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  2. scottakelly

    scottakelly Maven (1,487) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    [QUOTE

    Would you reckon ( anyone else please give their thoughts as well) that I'd be perfectly fine using a typical 5 or 10 gallon homebrew fermenter and just leaving the lid cracked as jack brought up[/QUOTE]

    I've been brewing this way for years. Lots of people have fears of infection or oxidation but I've never had a problem.
     
    #42 scottakelly, Mar 28, 2016
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  3. Hanglow

    Hanglow Pooh-Bah (2,051) Feb 18, 2012 Scotland
    Pooh-Bah

    Do those fermentors stop at the floor though? Some English ones have raised walkways around them

    edit:

    [​IMG]

    these are yorkshire squares so a bit different, but the bit you see is just for the yeast head that raises up - the beer is below the level of the floor

    surely having too great a surface area would be a concern, which would happen if your fermentor is too wide/long for the volume of wort and so shallow.

    I've always brewed in a bucket with the lid cracked too, it works fine for typical ales
     
    #43 Hanglow, Mar 28, 2016
  4. Groenebeor

    Groenebeor Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2009 California

    I can't seem to find any pictures of them empty, I was wondering the same thing.
     
    #44 Groenebeor, Mar 28, 2016
  5. Hanglow

    Hanglow Pooh-Bah (2,051) Feb 18, 2012 Scotland
    Pooh-Bah

    #45 Hanglow, Mar 28, 2016
  6. DunkelFester

    DunkelFester Zealot (607) Aug 24, 2004 Pennsylvania

    +1
     
    #46 DunkelFester, Mar 28, 2016
  7. Groenebeor

    Groenebeor Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2009 California


    Some simple math solves this for Schneider.

    Their tanks hold 32,000l

    1000 liters in a cubic meter

    V = pi* r^2 * h

    so assuming that the tanks are about 8 meters across,

    32.17 = pi * 4^2 * .64

    I'm going to guess that the depth of beer in those tanks is about .64m, or a little over 2 feet.

    If they aren't that wide (hard to tell from pictures of course) then the beer could be as deep as a meter.
     
    #47 Groenebeor, Mar 28, 2016
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  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Yes, you need to conduct blind tasting to formulate an objective opinion in this matter. Denny did a fine job of that as he discussed in the BN podcast.

    I had a chance to speak with Kai Troester at the 2013 NHC for a fair bit of time. Kai has on a number of occasions brewed dual batches of lagers: one where he performed a double decoction and the other not performing a decoction. He then conducted side-by-side taste testing and he reported that there was no clear ‘winner’ here. Sometimes he thought the decocted batch was ‘better’ and other times he preferred the non-decocted batch.

    Since you have expressed an interest in German brewing I would highly recommend Kai’s website to you; lots of good information there: http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com

    Cheers!
     
    #48 JackHorzempa, Mar 28, 2016
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  9. Groenebeor

    Groenebeor Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2009 California

    Huge fan of that website, lots of good material. I'm jealous you got to meet him!
     
    #49 Groenebeor, Mar 28, 2016
  10. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    I toured a place that did direct fired decoctions and boils last November, and open fermentations. The fermenters were fairly deep, maybe 2 meters. It was pretty old school and basic, brewery system was from 1971. The Dunkel was excellent and has been winning a lot of awards. Braueri Eck. Procedure trumps equipment.

    I think step mashes are beneficial for Continental malts. Decoctions may or may not be, but some of my best lagers were decocted. I had a bag of malt, every thing I made with it was hazy, never had that before. Should have done short rests at 132F to clean that up. One reason I look up malt analysis now.

    Good to see. @herrburgess back. He has much to contribute.
     
    #50 hopfenunmaltz, Mar 28, 2016
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  11. Hanglow

    Hanglow Pooh-Bah (2,051) Feb 18, 2012 Scotland
    Pooh-Bah

    Charlie Wells do step mashes, they do protein rests. Although their beers are rubbish so I'm not sure I'd do that for british beers :slight_smile: They do them all for stability, along with their filtering and pasteurising
     
    #51 Hanglow, Mar 28, 2016
  12. HopfenUndMalzGottErhalts

    HopfenUndMalzGottErhalts Zealot (643) Dec 25, 2015 Arizona

    Yes, and get ready to keep a proper stir on the decocting mash while it heats to a boil and then boils for whatever duration you use. Scorched pots are laborious to clean. This I know too well. :stuck_out_tongue:
     
    #52 HopfenUndMalzGottErhalts, Mar 28, 2016
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  13. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I think decoction is worth trying. However, I do not use a protein step. I mash in at a low sacch temp, decoct to a higher one, and then decoction mash out. Have done this 3 times with lager and kolsch-like beer and have been happy with results. But maybe I couldn't tell the diff if I tried side by side
     
    #53 pweis909, Mar 28, 2016
  14. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    Two pages deep and no clear plan for the "perfect German homewbrew setup" has been revealed.
     
    #54 Brew_Betty, Mar 28, 2016
  15. Groenebeor

    Groenebeor Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2009 California

    I have a feeling it won't be until page 20 that the little things I'm personally unsure of at this point in time start coming together.

    I'm still curious to hear about any experience with more automated setups and decoction - like the use of a herms or something like that.
     
    #55 Groenebeor, Mar 28, 2016
  16. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    3-4 kettle [separate mash and lauter tuns] setup with slurry pumps. some sort of mash rakes or stirring devices if possible with chains attached to them to prevent any possible mash scorching during decoctions. flotation tanks...open fermenters for top-fermenting beers...spunding devices on all PVs and clear sense of how yeast behave under pressure...lagering cellar or chamber with CO2-capturing capability and horizontal tanks for secondary... dunno. not easy to do it right on a smaller scale. But we're talking 'perfect' here, right?
     
    #56 herrburgess, Mar 28, 2016
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  17. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Betty, there is none. German beer is made in Germany on highly automated up to the date systems, or on very basic systems that are no more than big Homebrew systems.
     
    #57 hopfenunmaltz, Mar 28, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
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  18. Groenebeor

    Groenebeor Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2009 California

    That's what I'm talking about. Let's hash out how to do this on a smaller scale, or if it is necessary on a smaller scale.

    * Separate mash and lauter tuns - I'll be honest, I've read a lot and don't see the benefit here. What will this actually achieve?

    * Slurry pumps - Can't the same thing be achieved with a big scoop? I'm not sure this would save much time with a 10 gallon batch, would it?

    * Mash rake - again, is this going to help on a 10 gallon batch? I absolutely understand it on larger batches. I'm not trying to poo poo your list, just you are getting into things I've not read a lot about. I could see this being fairly easy to rig to a kettle as an attachment of some sort.

    * Flotation tank - from a quick read, basically the same thing removing crap from the top of an open fermenter does, but for beers where you aren't open fermenting? Isn't this just the same thing as oxygenating wort? I'm not sure.

    * Spunding devices - is this necessary if I'm going to keg or bottle condition? Or is the extra co2 a byproduct of doing this for another benefit?

    * Lagering Cellar - does a deep freezer modified for the right temps count? haha

    * CO2 capturing capability - again, is there some benefit to the beer being under "pressure" while fermenting? Does this matter for lagers more?
     
    #58 Groenebeor, Mar 28, 2016
  19. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Patience, grasshopper :slight_smile:
     
    #59 GreenKrusty101, Mar 28, 2016
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  20. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    Maybe just an extra pot, then, for boiling decoctions. It can get messy.

    Sure. But if you want to have pumps in use anyway, might be an idea

    Yeah...you can stand and stir...but that taught me the hard way why those old images of german brewers always depicted them wearing leather aprons. Watch those shins for scorching!

    Yeah...floats unwanteds to top

    Natural carbonation, speed of fermentation, and proper SO2 creation and capture

    Should...

    See above. Extra SO2 that is produced and captured gives it that extra element of ultra-freshness IMO. More welcome in lagers than ales, yes....
     
    #60 herrburgess, Mar 28, 2016
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