"Maybe it takes Americans to make a good German beer.."

Exactly the opposite of home court advantage. It is not heavy stout type beer so by the time it gets here and sits on shelves and you drink it, it is a shell of its former self....Even in Germany, during last call at Schlenkerla, they serve bottles and the difference is easily apparent. Still awesome, but a big difference.

 

Why just American "craft" styles? Why shouldn't Bavarians also brew and serve UK cask ale, Czech tankova lagers, Belgian lambics, meads, Scottish gruits, Japanese Happoshu, Classic American pilsners, Finnish sahti, French biere de garde, etc. etc.?

 

I just meant, when was the last time you heard of someone visiting Germany and saying, "I had some good beers, and some mediocre beers." Usually it's, "OMG every beer was excellent. Even the warm backwash from that pint glass in the middle of the table."

 

Because those are not as fashionable? Well, belgian trappist-style Ales from bavaria have been there for quite some time now (Think of Alpirsbacher Ambrosius for instance)....and maybe a Saison or two, but besides that....it's all american-inspired

 

That's the only answer I can think of as to why Bavarians should brew American "craft" styles (to the exclusion of others): because they are fashionable.

 

It's a shame that the author was disappointed in most of the 'traditional' beers that he found there. He complained that they were on the bland side and many taste much the same. Just showed ignorance, right? I mean, you wouldn't find a German beer expert making such statements, would you? Or would you...

http://refreshingbeer.blogspot.no/2014/11/narziss-slams-state-of-german-brewing.html
http://refreshingbeer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/is-this-programme-that-will-be-wake-up.html
...and here's that video:

Here's the truth of the matter: There's hundreds of points of light in Germany that shine with fantastic beers. But they are generally quite scattered about. Yes, there are clumps in some areas causing it to be brighter there, and those areas like that (Franconia is an oft-mentioned example) are truly wonderful. However, the average German is availed with quite a narrow range of 'choice' when it comes to beer.

Here's four styles of beer that are arguably on the world's mantel of vaulted styles:
* Bavarian style Hefeweizen
* English style ESB
* Belgian style Triple
* American style IPA

The above four are not intended to be anywhere close to an exhaustive list. Just four examples of world-respected styles.

Now, should they ONLY be available in their home countries? That would of course mean that you couldn't get three of them in the US any longer. That would be a shame. And a challenge to get rid of, as there are more of ALL FOUR being brewed in the US today than ever before.

So, if you folks in the US don't want to be denied of having the world come to you, why, pray tell, do you want to deny other parts of the world from having those four styles (and countless others) come to them?

The "I don't want to have an IPA when I'm in Bavaria" comment is common in this thread. I get that. I 110% agree that's a choice you should be able to make. However, if by saying that you are also meaning "I don't want a Bavarian to have the choice of having an English style ESB, a Belgian style Triple or an American style IPA at their local watering hole," well then...I don't even. "I deserve the choice, but you don't" is quite elitist.

The truth is that some Germans don't want any change in their choices (even though they've gotten it without realizing it as illustrated by the links above). And some do want more choices. Who are we to decide for them? It's up to each person to decide for themselves. I, for one, don't want to deny Haege the opportunity to have the IPA he loves fresh in his home country: If you do, well, that's a discussion you need to have with Haege. Lol.

 

The comment above is a bit of a straw-man. You're jumping to conclusions that just because someone doesn't want an IPA when they visit Germany, that they don't want an IPA brewed in Germany. You did say, "IF by saying that...", and I haven't looked back at all four pages of this thread, but I don't recall anyone actually making that statement.

In addition to that, if I want the best Bavarian style Hefeweizen at my local store (freshness being somewhat equal), I'm buying an import. There MIGHT be one or two US versions that I've personally had that can match them, or come close. So these options are few and far between (where's Stone's Hefeweizen ). And definitely if I'm grabbing a Belgian Triple, I'm going with a Belgian import. There's many admirable US versions, but the best are still Belgian. And freshness isn't an issue there. English style ESB is too general of a term to target.

I don't mind if there's better US versions on our shelves, but for the most part there aren't. So what's the point? I encourage US breweries to try their hand at these styles, and to get them right, but so far that hasn't universally been the case, not even close. The issue is, Americans have this "we can do everything great, and it's all great everywhere" mentality. I don't get that sense from the Germans, or even the Belgians. The expectations are different (I'm paraphrasing @steveh from earlier in this thread here).

By no means do I want to deny a German an IPA though. Therefore, I take no issue, in fact I'm curious, with the fact that Stone has a brewery in Berlin. I have no doubt they'll be exposed to a fresh, proper American IPA, and they can make their choice to drink what they like. Now, if Ayinger decided to brew an IPA and told me it's an outstanding American IPA, I would hope it was in fact an excellent IPA. I'd definitely be skeptical of their first attempt though, and if it wasn't up to snuff, I'd criticize them in the same way I would a US brewery that claims their German Pilsner is traditional.

 

Funny, I've been to Irish themed pubs in both Bamberg and Munich. One was dead, the other was filled with university students... drinking Warsteiner.

 

I can just say aigan what I've said around here millions times and will say it aigan:
I am not aiganst german-brewed IPAs and Stouts. I have loved DIPAs since i first tried american examples and are happy that I now can get them in germany. And I love that I can easily get my hands on some hoppy IPAs or APAs if I want to.
BUT saying that all german beer is boring, that only IPAs and barrel aged stouts are worth your time, is simply WRONG and shows ignorance towards what else is going on (and not only in franconia)

 

You might be excited to learn that Stone (Arrogant) will shortly be brewing a Pilsner:

“Koch: We have a beer coming out in July that I’m really excited about called Wussie. Actually the whole name is Who You Callin’ Wussie. It’s a hoppy northern German-style pilsner in 16-ounce six packs.”

I too am a fan of the Belgian brewed Tripels (e.g., Westmalle Tripel) but Unibroue (which is North American) produces a Tripel that is the equivalent to the Belgian brewed Tripels IMO: La Fin du Monde.

Cheers!

 

There's much to address in your post (as others have done very well already), but for you to conflate the beers Narziss is talking about with 'traditional' German beers is misleading at best and willfully ignorant at worst.

 

Lol. Just so I'm clear, do you think I popped into the conversation to be intentionally misleading, or to demonstrate that I'm willfully ignorant? Either way, that's a heck of a way engage in conversation.

You guys sometimes make sharing perspectives really really really difficult.

 

I addressed one of your points with the hope that you were unintentionally being misleading. Care to address the point?

 

Baiting is a really taxing way to have a conversation.

This statement covered it quite well I believe: "Here's the truth of the matter: There's hundreds of points of light in Germany that shine with fantastic beers. But they are generally quite scattered about. Yes, there are clumps in some areas causing it to be brighter there, and those areas like that (Franconia is an oft-mentioned example) are truly wonderful. However, the average German is availed with quite a narrow range of 'choice' when it comes to beer."

Let's please be polite and non-accusatory. Or, if preferred, I can simply bow out. I'm genuinely cool either way.

 

The guy was talking about Augustiner beers (very "traditional" German lagers in almost every way). Do you believe that Augustiner's beers are "bland" and "taste much the same" as the beers Narziss and the TV piece are talking about?

 

I try to generally avoid being brand specific, but instead be category specific. I think the way for you to answer that question is to set yourself up with a blind tasting. Who the hell cares what I think? What you think is the only thing that's important. Seriously.

I do know that when I visited a well-known branded bier garden in Bavaria in 1995, I found that I was uninterested in finishing my litre of beer after I'd gotten about half way through. When I visited a related bier garden in Salzberg in 2004, I once again found I was uninterested in finishing my litre of beer. When I visited that same place in Salzberg in 2015, I...mysteriously...decided to try again (it was an insufferably hot day after all), and once again I did not finish my 1 litre of beer. It's an awesome biergarten though, gotta hand 'em that!

 

Okay.

 

I can't recall anywhere I went in Germany, Biergarten, Bierhall, Bräuerei, where I didn't finish my beer(s), and they were most often liter Maßkrug. Maybe it's just how you (read: anyone) embrace the culture?

Come to think on it, there was nowhere in England, Ireland, France, Switzerland, or Austria where I left a half-consumed beer.

 

i might start following you round germany finishing off your beers

 

Ugghh. That's disgusting!

Maybe you follow him around, make sure you have a half-liter in your "holster," and quickly pour half of his into yours when it's dropped on the table!

"Hey, you gonna finish that?"