The 750 Saison

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by zid, Jun 26, 2016.

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  1. lic217

    lic217 Pooh-Bah (2,090) Aug 10, 2010 Connecticut
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    No doubt an incredible beer. I am glad I do not have to drive out of state to get it anymore. Great food beer...
     
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  2. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    A gathering of Kolsch just sounds like every Monday to me. :slight_smile: I simply can't shake 'em.

    I'm very much looking forward to you posting about the beers in your pics (including the Kolsch beers... give me a heads up if you do). Looking at both pics, I've had many of the same ones recently.
     
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  3. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    Holy Mountain - Misere Au Borinage

    According to the label, this is a foudre aged grisette with Brett and Lacto.

    The mention of Lacto on the label sends out a signal, and the beer is quite sour... easily the tartest "fresh" saison in the thread. There's some small funk. Carbonation is soft and really great. There's a lot of lemon here. It's wheaty. It's hazy. There's a chalkiness that I sometimes get with brett.

    Ultimately, it feels like a beer made by and for beer geeks. That's not a knock... it's a very nice beer... but I do think that's a useful description. It's like a Jeff Foxworthy joke: Your beer might be made by and for beer geeks if it says "foudre" on the label. :wink:

    Holy Mountain took their name from an album by stoner metal group Sleep. I don't know, but I assume that Sleep took that name from the exceptional movie by Alejandro Jodorowsky. It feels as if the brewery stepped right past the middle man and went to Jodorowsky for their branding. The occult vibe and clean designs seem to point to this... and the brewery logo even looks like a design used in the movie.

    I literally spilled a little bit of beer from my glass three different times. Was I a clutz that day or were there mystical forces at work? Considering the price of the beer (much higher than I usually spend... I didn't buy this beer the first time I saw it), I was still laughing with each spill anyway.

    Now let's get to the grisette tag.

    After the industrial revolution took place, the area in Belgium that produced saisons shifted focus from agriculture to mining. This naturally influenced how beer was produced... but beer was still being produced for laborers. Grisette was considered the drink for miners.

    Finding info about past beers can be a bit like finding out what you had for breakfast on a specific day five years ago. There might not be records of the info you need, but you can limit your guesses based on the conditions.

    Grisettes are generally believed to be similar to saisons. ABV is thought of as lower than the typical saison of the same time (keep in mind that this isn't static for saisons)... but ABV also varied according to strength classification. A "typical" grisette was probably not aged. It was probably hoppy. Industrialization probably led to cleaner fermentation and a more solid set of ingredients. A grisette would incorporate wheat. In other words, they might have been more consistent than the saisons that preceded them. There is no evidence that they were beers that featured acidity.

    Most of this info comes from "Farmhouse Ales," "Brewing With Wheat" (which I haven't read), Belgium by Beer, Beer by Belgium (ditto), Le Petit Journal du Brasseur (of course ditto), and the Hors Categorie Brewing blog.

    Looking at modern beers that are labeled Grisette, some things jump out. First off, they are often labeled "farmhouse ales," and in reality that might not be the case on the level of the historical model. Many of the "grisettes" that I have consumed fit the ideas above rather well. The sourness of the Holy Mountain beer in this post doesn't fit this historical guesswork. In my experience, most modern grisettes also happen to be very light in color. Historical grisettes might have been a darker amber. Grisettes are generally considered to be a branch off the saison tree and I don't see anything wrong with this way of categorization.

    St. Feuillien produces beers under a Grisette brand name... including a witbier and a fruit beer. You can either view this as the Belgian looseness with outside style convention, or their own lack of reverence, or our misreading of history... or a combination of the three.

    As far as the name goes, "gris" means gray in French. A "grisette" was a working-class woman... typically one who worked in the garment industry. They got this name from the gray clothing they would wear. The name also took on a sexual meaning... as in a flirtatious woman or a prostitute. As it relates to beer, the idea is that the name might have come to be because the beer was served to the miners by women. The Florida located Green Bench Brewing explains it like this: "The name refers to the gray garments the women wore that delivered the beer to the miners. They were known as, Les Grisettes." By leaving out the broader cultural context of the term, I think this little beer story doesn't paint a big enough picture. If you asked Mark Twain what a Grisette was, he would probably think "prostitute" rather than "beer server." Some breweries are playing with this in their packaging with names like "Delightfully Immoral Grisette." Intentionally or not, it makes you look at the Sly Fox can art a bit differently. When they put "working-class ale" under the image, they are probably referring to the miners, but in the context of the can art, does it have a double-meaning or is it just a coincidence? The alternate theory is that "grisette" refered to the gray color of the rock being mined, but due to the broader cultural significance of the term that I just mentioned, this seems unlikely to me.

    Here's a picture of a grisette:

    [​IMG]

    The caption reads:
    "The grisette wanted to have dresses and hats. It was sold / She sold."

    Are they drinking beer?
     
    #283 zid, Jul 31, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2016
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  4. utopiajane

    utopiajane Grand Pooh-Bah (3,982) Jun 11, 2013 New York
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    Thank you for the lovely history on the style . :sunglasses: Cheers and Happy New Beer Sunday !

    I hope I am not too late to add this
     
    #284 utopiajane, Jul 31, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2016
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  5. cjgiant

    cjgiant Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,584) Jul 13, 2013 District of Columbia
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    Yes, thanks for the information and I must say, though I liked the Sly Fox label, it was a) not what I expected when I first saw it and 2) didn't quite get it, now I do. :wink: The gray/grisette frocks were mentioned on the label, though.

    The mIn place I have had beers labeled grisette is a little brewpub in DC called Right Proper. They often have farmhouse and funky/tart offerings. Their grisettes have tended, from my recollection, to be more farmhouse light beers. Since memories are a funny thing, I may need to find my way back to the Shaw district in the near future.
     
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  6. Urk1127

    Urk1127 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,790) Jul 2, 2014 New Jersey
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    @zid

    Today ill have the pleasure of finally getting Saison Dupont in my face.....but. since youve had so many, do you see a difference in glassware for saison? As mentioned some say tulip some say pint.

    Also i had two beers last night in Alesmith Lil Devil (belgian pale) and Neshaminy Creek Tribute Tripel. I found it odd that both could also pass off as Saison imo. Especially the Alesmith beer. And the tripel although 3% higher abv and smelled like grape juice, reminded me of sly fox grisette. Maybe because both are from PA and its the water? Idk lol. Truly a broad term although I understand categorizing beers sometimes theres a bridge or combination of things going on.
     
  7. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    I'm the wrong guy to ask. I've never examined this for myself. My glassware criteria usually revolves around: "Do I like to hold it, do I like to drink from it?"
     
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  8. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    [​IMG]

    Boulevard Saison-Brett

    This beer is more or less the beloved Tank 7 with the addition of brett. The cork of this bottle shot off like a rocket to crash with the ceiling. This beer just continues to impress me. It's wonderful. There's an earthy funk that is absent from Tank 7. It's incredibly smooth and drinkable. The thing that surprises me about this beer is how restrained and quiet it feels. I like Tank 7 very much, but that beer feels a little too loud to me - especially in the yeast (even though the hops get more attention). Saison-Brett feels nothing like Tank 7. One day, I will have to try them side by side. I'm sure that will be illuminating and might make me take back some of my thoughts here.
     
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  9. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    OK, here's the next group of seven - the American beers with brett on the label.

    I ended up eliminating the Holy Mountain beer from any ranking because it just stood out too much in the pack. It's much more sour than anything else here (and the light color was also a giveaway.)

    Here's how I ranked them according to personal preference:

    6 - Bruery Saison Rue
    5 - Anchorage Love Buzz
    4 - Jester King Mad Meg
    3 - Logsdon Seizoen Bretta
    2 - Smuttynose Biere De 'Shire
    1 - Boulevard Saison-Brett

    Essentially no surprises except for one big one - Smuttynose. Talk about a dark horse. That beer was also the freshest of the lot if anyone wants to put stock in that.
     
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  10. cjgiant

    cjgiant Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,584) Jul 13, 2013 District of Columbia
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    Hmmm..... giving me ideas for later this week :slight_smile:.
     
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  11. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    [​IMG]

    Kerkom Reuss

    This beer is the result of a lambic blended with a "Belgian pale ale" - perhaps Bink Blond. It isn't considered a saison. It's listed on BeerAdvocate as a gueuze. This seems like an improper tag to me, but I know very little on the subject (and I can appreciate that no category would be perfect here). I've had Bink Blond before. It struck me as nice but possessing a weird plant-like flavor.

    In Yvan De Baets essay on saison, he mentioned Reuss as something close to saison but not labeled saison by the brewer. This is also where he included De Ranke XX. I don't know if he intentionally chose one beer on the bitter side and one beer on the sour side. I decided to include both of those beers in this thread.

    Kerkom is said to be the oldest continuously operating farmhouse brewery in Belgium.

    The label on this green bottle is very handsome. Is there a beer style more associated with green 750ml bottles than saison and lambic?

    The cork on this beer came off with a huge pop. Once in the glass, the carbonation races up to the top en masse. Michael Jackson once described lambic as being onion skin colored. I really love the guy's perspective. He makes a description like that lose all pretension because it just feels so honest and unique. Maybe I'm just biased.

    There's a lot of acidity in the beer compared to the other beers in the thread. When brewers were tasked with making their beers last through storage, different techniques were used. Lactic acid was relied upon as a preservative. This was probably the case in both lambic and saison. The sourness in this beer is comparable to green apple and lemon, but this is mitigated through the malt and the funk. The ale that is blended with the lambic is supposedly a well-hopped one, but hops are not sticking out in this beer. I feel like they are contributing to the balance, but I don't get much hop flavor. I wonder if the brewers are using any old hops in this beer. The finish is nice and dry. There's an odd note in the beer that I can't quite put my finger on. This certainly isn't a "one note" sour beer.
     
    #291 zid, Aug 1, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2016
  12. TongoRad

    TongoRad Grand Pooh-Bah (3,884) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
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    This isn't a 750, but I'm really enjoying this at the moment:
    [​IMG]
    Trinity Saison Man- fermented with brett and aged in white wine barrels, 4.9%.

    I'm immediately hit with a white wine aroma, and it's just too clear and strong to be the result of any sort of suggestion. Breaking it down further I'm getting more fruits- particularly apricot and apple, both straw and slight horseblanket, and a gentle yeasty spiciness. The palate is full at first, before finishing crisp, tart and dry. Apple juice and white raisin are struggling for dominance, but the brett is trying to fend them off. Spices, bread crust and toasty oak settle out on a long lingering finish. It's an addictive yin/yang that's going on- full, round and juicy for a moment, before the quick slam of dry tartness takes it the rest of the way. Midway through the oak is becoming more prominent, while the horseblanket plays a consistent supporting role throughout. It's crazily drinkable, though some more complexity and definition would bring it to the next level. Still, I will happily clear out the shelves just to have the pleasure of drinking several in a row next time.

    (cross posted with NBS)
     
  13. Urk1127

    Urk1127 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,790) Jul 2, 2014 New Jersey
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    Simply put, this is the best saison ive ever had. Smell is dry, semi sour, wheaty smell. Taste is soft, drying, grassy. Hay. Super livey big bubbles. Earthy. Im buying more immediately. Date on bottle is 11/2015
     
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  14. Urk1127

    Urk1127 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,790) Jul 2, 2014 New Jersey
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    [​IMG]
    I feel some type of way about this.

    The store where i bought it, had 12oz bottles recently so i grabbed the bomber. Its dated 6/2014. And i wouldn't say its bad but i feel like im missing out. Its sweeter than id think. Not much oxidation actually but the dry hopping came across as sweet but still as hoppy as SNPA. Not a bad base beer for 2 years old. But i feel fresh, this would be very good. Ive not yet had a fresh beer from firestone walker. My fault though. This was a spontaneous grab for $5.
     
  15. Urk1127

    Urk1127 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,790) Jul 2, 2014 New Jersey
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    Really though. This is thread of the year for sure and i know its the internet but i will remember the info received from this thread and it is appreciated.
     
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  16. Squire

    Squire Grand Pooh-Bah (4,385) Jul 16, 2015 Mississippi
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    This thread has certainly got me more interested in Saisons than I was before.
     
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  17. utopiajane

    utopiajane Grand Pooh-Bah (3,982) Jun 11, 2013 New York
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    Cheers everyone. Today I have Allagash Little Brett which I think is a wonderful beer. I paired it with lamb chops with anchovy and sage, chicpeas and zucchini.

    Pours yellow with a gentle haze and white head for creamy foam. I am using my farmers glass for the saison. nose is earthy with funk and tart with lemon. Sour and herbal pepper with a nice dash of weak black pepper too. You kind in the tin, its so old it's all sticky when you touch it. Firm cracker for malt. Flower petals mixed with sharp greens. Pungency. Right before you exhale a gentle sweetness form the light sugar.

    taste is crisp and dry. Earthy and abundant with malt. Sultry with herbal and the palate loves the lemon and spicy earth. Malt is firm and finishes the beer hearty. A dusting of barnyard. Bitterness and bubbles finish it gently and that brings a smile as the light lemon peel lingers.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  18. cjgiant

    cjgiant Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,584) Jul 13, 2013 District of Columbia
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    Thursday Throwdown (not really) revival of this thread!

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    Two Boulevard beers, two farmhouse/saison beers...

    In a lively discussion with the girlfriend, but I think we've settled down, as have these beers, so hopefully I can do this some justice.

    First off, the Saison Brett made me duck as I opened it as the gun blast of subdued carbonation escaped the bottle. The pour indicates its effusive nature when it comes to carbonation. The Tank 7 has a lovely head itself - though I threw that in the glass a little more aggressively. Body wise, they look abot the same, I'd say the Tank 7 is a little more opaque (the GF says slightly darker).

    (Side Note: as I drink these, the lacing in both is a very pretty image)

    The nose is also very similar. The base seems to be the same, really. And in a surprise to no one, the Saison Brett has a bit more tart funk than the other. The Tank 7 has a (relatively) sweet note to it, estery banana with an earthy back. The Saison Brett smells "lighter" with the tartness of the Brett giving that "citrusy summer drink" edge to it (again, all is relative).

    If I say relative one more time, I'm going to.... forgive myself.

    The Tank 7, realitvely, seems a little more Hefe-like with the esters, and the farmhouse funk seems subdued, even a tad more than my last post of Tank 7. The Saison Brett is also quite smooth, but the Brett adds a liveliness to the beer that lightens it while also providing an interesting tart note.

    Granted, the Tank 7 isn't the freshest (early January bottle date), and the Saison Brett is new to the shelves around here with a best by date of 2018, but in this tasting, the Saison Brett was more enjoyable to me.

    To be honest, this isn't a surprise as I've rated Saison Brett pretty highly in the past. What is a surprise is to look at my ratings and see I have rated Tank 7 higher than the Saison Brett :astonished:. **I have adjusted based on new information, and I expect I will adjust again at a future date.

    This was a fun experiment, and what I can say is that these beer were actually quite similar in so many ways. As @zid mentioned (if I am recalling correctly) these are related beers. All I can truly say as of this post is I like a fresh Saison Brett over an aged Tank 7.

    ** I think my last sentence is what I meant to put in this footnote :slight_smile:
     
  19. azurel

    azurel Initiate (0) May 27, 2016 Michigan

    I've been waiting for this one....I have debated buying this...We carry this at work and I walk by it daily....I really liked Tank 7....It was similar to a Patersbier we brewed....

    Going to have to pick this one up before it is gone.
     
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  20. cjgiant

    cjgiant Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,584) Jul 13, 2013 District of Columbia
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    If you like Tank 7 and enjoy Brett Beers, I feel you won't be disappointed.

    And for @TongoRad... I combined the last 75mL of the two beers from my previous post...

    Nose fell more towards Tank 7, feel a bit lighter (leaning Saison Brett), and taste...
    balanced and mildly boring up front, but a strange hoppy to weirdly funky back end.
    Not sure it improved either beer, but science still wins, even if I lose :wink:.
     
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