Bad Trader @Griff57

Nice, glad to hear all this, but what you need to know is the folks here have been through jojomdma, and mikesgroove, and too many others, and have heard every bogus excuse delivered by the most sincere folks with far, far more good trades than you have. I will be happy to see you make good on this fuck up as it will put one more into the "good guy who fucked up but ended up doing the right thing" column.

 

@Griff57 sorry to hear about your dad i know that kind of news could be tough on anyone.

 

Sorry about your Dad and glad you are making it right with the OP but this is where you lose all credibility IMO. Seems to be a common thing these days among BT's to say beer is way down on their list of priorities . Like that justifies not meeting obligations. You have 35 trades in the 32-33 weeks you've been a member. You obviously spend a lot of time buying beer, packaging beer, shipping beer, communicating with your trade partners about beer and meeting up with them for IP trades of beer. Don't tell everyone beer is way down on your list when you are so involved with trading and spending so much time with it. It's insulting to anyone who trades and knows how much time is involved in doing so.

 

But this is nothing like those two.

Those two guys straight up stole thousands of dollars in beer from people. This guy flaked on a small IP trade, stole no beer, and is trying to make it right. I just disagree that ever one of these threads should be treated exactly the same as if the "bad trader" is the worst scum on the face of the planet every time.

Dude dropped the ball. He's making it right. That makes him way way way better than mikesgroove and jojomdma.

It's like you didn't read his second post where he backtracked on those comments before bringing out your pitchfork. Good job.

 

I was referring to the all too common excuse that "beer is way down on my list of priorities" , which is comical for someone averaging a trade a week. Never saw any post taking that back but if he did I stand corrected.

 

It makes me view all excuses with a degree of skepticism that goes past whether someone has a buncha good trades is all I meant. BT in this thread was surprised folks didn't just think his good trades automatically put him above suspicion. mikesgroove and others with lotsa trades flaked out and gave awesome excuses, so to me there is no excuse that automatically is above suspicion, no matter how small the trade or infraction.

 

Certainly no one, regardless of their past should be above critique or suspicion, but by the same token is it not important to provide each individual with a fair and unbiased evaluation and not hold them accountable for the actions of others? It is very easy to become jaded, especially for those of us that have been observing the "bad trader" threads for a long time, but when it comes time to seek resolution I think it is hugely important to default to a place in which we only assess them and the situation based upon their unique actions and the facts we have. If we don't do that then there is little chance of a fair outcome. I also think that it is massively important to understand that the vast majority of our community is comprised of good people, and it is on us all to show that we value people beyond beer and that we strive to give people the chance to make up for mistakes and continue to be a proactive part of BA. With the current climate I worry about how many people that genuinely made a simple mistake will be fearful of trying to come here and fix it because of the shit storm that awaits.

 

A lot of the circumstances griff57 posted as excuses are shaky.

I don't doubt his fathers bad health, it is a terrible disease and nothing any family wants to go through so sorry for him and his family.

But I don't believe he is being totally truthful, as it is hard to believe he completely forget trade and didn't communicate at all for these reasons:

1. He kept on drinking while he was off the BA grid, it never occurred to him he was supposed to meet OP?
2. He was on untappd, and using his phone, never occurred to him to go on BA?
3. If he wasn't on BA, what about the multiple email alerts he got when OP bmed him, he never saw those?
4. He was drinking the same exact beers OP was supposed to trade him, the light never went off in his head that he had a trade to complete with someone who was trading him same exact beers??

Good of OP to show up here, but IMHO he is not being 100% truthful here. Feels to me as he is active on site, part of him making good is to preserve his reputation, he probably never expected to be called out like this.

 

I think that these types of critiques are totally warranted and probably helpful. While I can indeed understand having something slip your mind completely I get where your doubts stem from as you articulated them really clearly in those points.

I don't think that the drinking of beers or using untappd would necessarily trigger the memory, especially if those are activities you have normalized. At that point they are likely not associated closely enough with the other factors to prompt the thought to arise. Point 3 is very valid and I would be curious to hear him address that, and point 4 is tough to say much about but I can understand where it would also plant some skepticism. To me, your post is extremely proactive and precisely he way we want to get to the bottom of things on these threads!

 

I don't know that I could be much clearer as to why I posted this, and as I've received a number of people commenting in a positive manner I don't think my reasoning was incoherent to anyone but you. At least that is what I can tell at this point. I state my position clearly and the driving factors that led me to author the statement. As a preface before continuing I will say that despite your several attempts to discredit me I have read most of the "bad trader" threads over the past few years, and I have even chimed in on a few. I am not a novice to these situations, but either way any argument from authority is really pointless to make. Also it seems that you and I will have a disagreement at the core of our philosophies as most of your post defaults to what other bad traders have done, and my argument is really that each case is unique and should be taken as such to preserve fairness. Innocent until proven guilty if you will in terms of their intent, and if you are so jaded from other bad trades then maybe removing yourself from the situation is for the best as you cannot be objective. Note: The "you" in that paragraph is the disembodied "you" and not a direct comment on your ability to be objective.

Let me attempt to take your points in order to avoid further confusion:

You are right that there is no direct quote, I was paraphrasing there and so the quotation marks were likely a grammatical error. That does not however invalidate the point that I was making, which is that people are unfairly attributing intent based upon observations that may not be aligned like here:
"Firts of all it's "you're", not "your". Second, if it was "so far down the list of your priorities", then you wouldn't be checking them in on Untappd. No need to be even a bigger jerk than you already are."

I also do not want to make this overlong, so I will try to address the rest briefly.

- The "trade history does not matter" or close to that was a comment on this chain but more importantly a theme I have seen run through other posts and I voiced why I do not agree with it in my original writeup.

- You say that the moderators cull the worst of the comments, and I'm sure that the most grievous offenders are cut, however I have personally seen mods be some of the worst offenders of condescending tone and overtly aggressive language prior to evidence being examined. You need not share that opinion, but that is mine. It is certainly not all mods or all the time either.

- The "red tag" comment was another segment in which I felt that people were wrongfully attributing intent without evidence to support it. We simply do not know what the driving factor was in the trader's coming out and addressing the issue, and to claim otherwise is unfair and unfounded.

Like I said, it seems we may have a difference in philosophy at the core here, which is the fact that I am not okay with people assuming intent or basing people prior to having all the evidence at hand. I think it generates an unhealthy mob mentality and in the end hurts the potential for future resolutions and therefore the community as a whole. I did not once ask for censoring of people or for mods to start dictating what can or cannot be said - my post was an opinion piece for people to think on so that hopefully we can improve the existing norms. Just as they are entitled to bash away I believe I am entitled to critique their commentary, and now in turn you critique mine. We are all after the same thing I believe, but we may have divergent views on how best to aceive those goals.

 

...and getting back on topic...

 

I sent you a PM so as to not further sidetrack the thread per F2's comment.

 

One way or another, this another situation that is well on its way to being resolved because there is a good system set up to handle these matters.

Boo-yah!

 

Have to disagree with you here....

1. I drink multiple times a week and I find myself not thinking about BA while in the act of drinking even if it's beer I've traded for OR will be trading here on BA. If you can't drink a beer without thinking about BA there may be other issues
2. Untappd for many people is just a natural reflex, myself included. Most of the time it's just second nature to jump on give my quick rating of what I thought of a beer. Again never thinking about BA or anything of the ilk while doing it, they're separate entities and unless you trade on untappd (ughh no thanks) why do you ASSUME someone elses thought process
3. You do realize people have multiple email addresses, or OH KNOW! Turn off email notifications. I'm in fantasy football leagues or bottle share planning threads that have a TON of messages everyday so I turned off email notifications. Again just a blind assumption.
4. I trade a lot of jester king and a lot of locals no, everytime I open a beer I don't think oh hey I'm sending a few of these out next week. That doesn't even make sense. If your every waking moment is thinking about your trades I'm sorry for you.

In the end did @Griff57 mess up? Yup sure did. Is he now, possibly but not definitively making up for after this thread and/or bad trader tag? Yup sure is. Can he go on anyone's personal DNT list? YUP! Yay for individualism!

Unless you have definitive proof of the thought process of @Griff57 I don't think it's fair for you to be an internet psychologist and decide his state of mind during anything.

He should have gotten in contact with OP and they both should have exchanged numbers since it was an IP trade.... but it APPEARS he is going to make things right, and once it's done this matter will be over and besides you maybe not trading with him in the future will you even remember this in 6 months?

 

@Dicers can't face scrolling back through the thread, but wasn't he checking in or posting to social media, the same Other Half beers that were going to be OP's side of the trade? If so - would drinking a non-distro'd, fairly limited beer not be a reasonable thing to jog the old memory?

I can see your side on your points though

 

Thinking? Averaging over one trade per week for the last 7 months is practically trading every waking moment