Will spontaneous fermentation become a "trend" in America?

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by Dave_Carlson, Nov 19, 2016.

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  1. Dave_Carlson

    Dave_Carlson Initiate (0) May 17, 2015 New York

    From what I've read, Jester King's Methode Gueuze release seems to be a big success (I've not had it). Allagash's line of Coolship beers seem to be well received too. de Garde and probably several other American breweries that I'm not aware of regularly produce spontaneously fermented beer.

    Now, obviously this style of beer is time-consuming, difficult and expensive to produce. Nevertheless, I'm hoping that the number of American breweries that attempt spontaneous fermentation will continue to increase. To what extent do y'all think this is likely to happen? Can and will spontaneous fermentation become a trend in America?
     
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  2. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Well, regardless of how they are being used, the number of US breweries using coolships has certainly been on the rise within the craft era.

    When threads like this pop up, someone always takes the position that something can't be a trend if it's been around for centuries. I don't see how those are mutually exclusive.
     
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  3. TriggerFingers

    TriggerFingers Initiate (0) Apr 29, 2012 California

    Will it become a trend? Tough to say, but probably not.

    Why? Because when you do a wild spontaneous ferment you could end up with a product that might not be as desirable as one that is controlled. You then have a choice. Blend the resulting beer or dump it. Some Brett strains are tough to stomach, with or without fruit. Long story short, the monetary risk is greater than the reward in most cases.

    Although coolships allow wort to be cooled with exposure to air, some wooden vessels (and even the surrounding wood, ceiling, etc) are already inoculated with a successful colony of microbes.
     
  4. Dave_Carlson

    Dave_Carlson Initiate (0) May 17, 2015 New York

    Heh. Yes, there are many sticklers here at BA.

    In any case, I hope to see more breweries doing this, just so that I'll have a better chance at trying some of them.
     
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  5. Dave_Carlson

    Dave_Carlson Initiate (0) May 17, 2015 New York

    Those are all good points. I do hope, however, that more breweries will give it a try.
     
  6. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    I know I'm guilty. :flushed::wink:
     
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  7. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,313) Nov 20, 2005 England
    Pooh-Bah

    Traditional brewers who produce "spontaneous" beers actually take few chances. The "wild yeast" actally pervades the brewery and is just waiting to fall in.
    Try leaving your car with the keys in and it will be spontaneously stolen .
     
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  8. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    It's already trendy enough that there is a company selling spontaneous fermentation kits to homebrewers...
     
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  9. dennis3951

    dennis3951 Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2008 New Jersey

    That's pretty much what Michael Jackson writes in Beer Companion. The brewer may not pitch the yeast but they know what yeasts are going into the beer.
     
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  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    In the context of local microflora residing within a brewery I think it is important to recognize that those microorganisms were not placed there by some microbiologist. They got there as Bob Dylan might say: blowing in the wind.

    I also think that it is worthwhile to mention that for the breweries in Belgium:

    “The windows are opened and perhaps louvered vents are also opened in the roof. Here, overnight, the wort has maximum exposure to the air and is inoculated with the yeasts and bacteria unique to the Senne River Valley: the yeasts Brettanomyces bruxellensis and lambicus, saccharomyces (cerevisiae, globosus, dairenis, pediococcus, suvarun bayanus), candida, torpulpis, hansenula, kloeckera, and bacteria (entero, lactic acid, acetic acid).”

    One more aspect worth pointing out is that the Belgian brewers only spontaneous ferment their beers certain times of the year:

    “Because lambic production is reliant on airborne wild yeasts and bacteria, the production of this beer is undertaken only during the cool months of the year, roughly the months containing the letter r, September to April. In recent years, the brewing season has been condensed to October to March. In warm weather, especially during the heat of the summer, too many of the “wrong” kinds of bacteria are in the air. Lambic produced at this time would be far too sour, even for lambic, and funky. The Belgians say it would have a “summer taste,” and they avoid this.”

    http://allaboutbeer.com/article/in-search-of-lambic/

    Cheers!
     
  11. Premo88

    Premo88 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,682) Jun 6, 2010 Texas
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Well put.

    Jester King knows going in to each batch that there's a significant chance they will have to dump the entire batch, and that's for everything they brew, not just the spontaneous fermented stuff. "Significant" is probably at least 5-10% and maybe as much as 20-30% ... those are guesses based on listening to their tours and reading their stuff, but I'm sure it's thousands of percentage points higher than the average macro brewery is willing to risk.

    So what @TriggerFingers says is right: Spontaneous fermented beers will never become the trend that IPA/DIPAs have become because of the cost. It's way too expensive. Even if all of your batches work out, you still have to blend, which takes years. Very few breweries are willing to make that investment.

    That doesn't mean we won't see more craft brewers trying to sell their spontaneously fermented beer. I'm sure we will, and Jester King's success is a big deal for the U.S. If we can do it down here in Texas where the weather sucks for it, there's no reason why our brewers up north can't give it a serious go. My bet is a great many of them already are trying.
     
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  12. bubseymour

    bubseymour Grand Pooh-Bah (4,800) Oct 30, 2010 Maryland
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    As long as Americans stay moderately wealthy for the foreseeable future and have enough people willing to spend $20+ on a 750ml 4%ABV brew, then yes, they the wild ale funk factories will continue to expand. I love them. Hope my disposable income doesn't decline.
     
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  13. Zorro

    Zorro Grand Pooh-Bah (3,258) Dec 25, 2003 California
    Pooh-Bah

    Just another fad.
     
  14. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    They don't take chances though. When the roof over the coolship at Cantillon had to be replaced, they put the old tiles between the rafters and the new tiles to reproduce the microenvironment. Saw that on a tour. A few years later those old tiles were stacked in the adjacent room, as they were no longer needed.
     
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  15. rgordon

    rgordon Pooh-Bah (2,701) Apr 26, 2012 North Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    It's not so much that we are sticklers, it's simply that we adhere to very narrow definitions of things that may not much matter.....Anyway, I don't see spontaneous fermentation becoming too trendy. I remember a few Chardonnays several years back that did and were quite nice. Like Sherry (Jerez), perhaps some beers will emerge that are unique to an area because of native yeast(s).
     
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  16. KevSal

    KevSal Pooh-Bah (2,940) Oct 17, 2010 California
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    russian river has been doing it for quite some time with success.
    while i agree with this statement i can't think of one spontaneous fermented america wild that i havnt enjoyed. can anyone come up with one?

    i guess the closest one that comes to mind is open container, but i really enjoyed that beer
     
  17. sdhopaddict

    sdhopaddict Devotee (373) Oct 9, 2016 California

    Well there are quite a lot of breweries making all sorts of barrel aged sours. They may not all be brewed in the same way but the number of breweries aging in large oak foeders is certainly increasing. In Southern California alone we have Toolbox, Belching Beaver, Pure Project, Council, Modern Times, Lost Abbey, Monkish, The Bruery, Green Flash Cellar 3, Beachwood Blendery, Smog City, Craftsman, Firestone Walker, Phantom Carriage, and Highland Park. And there are more on the way. So I think oak aged sours are certainly exploding in popularity and availability over time.
     
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  18. Dave_Carlson

    Dave_Carlson Initiate (0) May 17, 2015 New York

    Indeed. Council and Toolbox were my first exposures to sour beers. I no longer live in Southern California, but I have tons of respect for both breweries.
     
  19. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Talking with industry folks, there is risk when bwerkng sour beers, let alone spontaneous beers. Every barrel is different, and some get rejected due to defects, as one says "we don't sell nail polish remover, so those get dumped. That person gave me the impression that 20% was a usual reject rate. One time the whole batch was off, it saw the drains. Another place said they often see about 40% rejects.

    If you think about it, Stainless Steel breweries became the norm for reasons like consistency, control of the product, and no need for a cooperage.
     
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  20. TriggerFingers

    TriggerFingers Initiate (0) Apr 29, 2012 California

    I believe Russian River inoculates their barrels, which is not a spontaneous fermentation. Any spontaneous ferment that makes it to public consumption has "passed the test," so to speak.

    It's really a hit-or-miss method. If you ever have tried collecting wild microbes with wort around your backyard, you'll know out of every 10 samples 2-3 may be usable for brewing. Everything else is moldy or rancid and gets dumped.

    It's much easier, and more cost effective to use specific barrel pitches than try a large scale spontaneous ferment.
     
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