"Can Shock", "Bottle Shock", and Freshness

Yes, that's a good explanation of the dumb phase for some wines. I would just add that if we shift our discussion to cellarable beers, there's no reason some might not also experience a dumb-esque phase in their evolution.

Bottle shock is a separate concept. IF it is a real occurrence with wine, I'm not sure the chemistry is well enough understood to form an assumption on whether the same thing could happen with beer. It seems theoretically and superficially plausible.

 

Michael,

Thanks for that link. It was indeed an interesting read.

As regards to brewing with Brett:

“Far more Brettanomyces isolates seem to test positive for beta glucosidase. Many studies focus on the species B. custersii (also known as B. bruxellensis [8]). One study found that 7 of 26 tested B. custersii isolates were beta glucosidase active [9]. One isolate in particular, CMBS LD72 (from a lambic fermentation), has been shown not only to increase free aglycone levels, but to increase them above human-detectable levels in beer [5]. This is the only isolate I have found evidence of producing above-threshold levels of free aglycones. But, given the dearth of studies, there are likely many more isolates capable of doing so.

The bad news is none of these isolates are available to the home brewer either.”

I have a batch in my fermenter right now where I co-pitched with B. bruxellensis. I have used this strain twice before and for both of those batches I did not perceive ‘extra’ hop flavors; it did not seem to me that this strain produced perceptible aglycone levels (at least for my palate). I will ‘look’ for this aspect in the batch I have going right now.

I wonder if @suregork can provide further input on the topic of yeast strains that produce beta glucosidase.

Cheers!

 

It's not well publicized but there's quite a number of people who believe that NE-style beers are better with about a few weeks of age on it. (Jow's Arcade may be the only Youtuber I heard that promotes that message.)

While I'd love to try fresh vs. weeks-aged real NE beers (I've only had Trillium and Tree House aged about a month)... I can say that my experience with California-made NE-style beers is that waiting is better. I absolutely did not like Monkish when I visited. But that last can in my 4-pack of Spock It (Galaxy juice bomb) was drinking really nicely when I had it 6 weeks out.

The only exception to the rule might be Cellarmaker hazy beers, since their beers rarely last more than a week on tap anyway. But they taste really amazing day 1. Maybe they actually wait until it's ideal before tapping kegs?

 

Hmm, that is an interesting thought.

Dave (@cavedave), would you happen to know how Dan Hitchcock manages the draft beers at the Rushing Duck tasting room? Does he 'pre-age' the draft beer before making it available for drinking? Are the beers served from kegs or does he serve directly from a serving tank?

Cheers!

 

There are different strains of Brett just like there are different strains of Brewers yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae and Saccharomyces pastorianus). Each strain will indeed behave differently which is a good thing in that we are able to obtain different beers (e.g., different beer styles) from the varying yeast strains.

Cheers!

 

Since this thread has taken a bit of a turn to discuss the topic of linalool levels in beer I thought some folks might be interested in knowing that dry hopping can significantly affect the amounts of linalool in beer:

“the concentration of linalool in beer increases by 5 to 90 μg/l. The linalool yield from dry hopping ranges from 6 to 48 percent, depending on the hop variety and the contact time;”

http://www.baywa.eu/fileadmin/media/relaunch/Downloads/.DE/Ackerbau/Hop_Sales_Article_Kaltner.pdf

As a reminder, from the beersensoryscience article the flavor threshold for linalool is:

· R-linalool: 1 ppb (μg/l)

· S-linalool: 7 ppb (μg/l)

So it is easy to discern that the dry hop derived amount of 90 μg/l is quite perceptible.

Cheers!

@GreenKrusty101

 

Trinity did a series called the Magical Brettanomyces Tour, where they fermented the same base beer with different strains of Brett:
http://draftmag.com/brett-geeks-come-ride-trinitys-magical-brettanomyces-tour/

It was quite enlightening to do some comparisons, and I still see some of them around.

 

Michael, were those beers solely fermented with Brett? I have read (from @OldSock ?) that for Brett to fully express funk the beer must first be fermented (primary fermentation) with a POF strain of Belgian ale yeast and then Brett is added to the mix as a secondary fermentation yeast.

I have yet to solely ferment with Brett but I have read other homebrewers report that when they solely ferment with Brett the principle yeast produced flavor is fruity and they obtained no funky flavors.

Cheers!

 

I believe that they are fully Brett fermented, and there are those uniquely floral and fruity qualities to them. But there's also some funk, especially in #4 Afro Brett, which is pretty hard core in that regard.

 

In my experience all of the NE-style IPA's I've had from Trillium, Other Half, Tree House etc., I've found are best at about 2 weeks old, notably better than day one regardless. Heady Topper may be an exception because I believe they don't sell cans immediately after canning.

 

I never pop a Carton O-Dubs within the first two-three weeks after it's been canned. Super-fresh it has a grassy, muddled, somewhat bitter unpleasant taste. But, for me, anything after 3+ weeks it starts to round out and its complexities come together. It's an IPA that benefits from a little time and proves itself to be NJ's best canned beer you don't have to visit the brewery to obtain.

 

I think it depends on the beer but I've noticed TH is great fresh to about 2 weeks then falls off a bit, while Monkish is the opposite and I think it actually tastes better at almost a month.

 

It's hilarious how full-circle we've become. It was always about drinking IPAs as fresh as humanly possible, a day or two after being bottled/canned, and with West Coast IPAs I do feel like this is the case, but now, with all these massively dry hopped New England style IPAs on the rise, everyone recommends aging them a few weeks. I just think it's hilariously ironic.

 

Yes. I thought the potential parallels were interesting to ponder. Although entirely different fermented beverages (beer and wine), being suddenly "packaged" might be "shocking". I've seen Cabs (and others) turn from being a young jumbled mess, to being incredibly smooth and silky wonders. Watching some J W Lee's Harvest Ales as they develop is a fun and profound exercise.

 

100% Brett can get funky, but it usually takes longer than a beer with a mixed fermentation. It just depends on the strain and conditions.

Lance from Omega Labs did an experiment comparing Brett with a POF+ strain and found that that Brett converted the 4VG pretty quickly even at low pitching rates. http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Brettanomyces_secondary_fermentation_experiment

 

I have no idea why you are using a term and that god awful word. Shock.
It's pretty common knowledge if you happen to spend any amount of time near brewery employees, and homebrewers that the sweet spot for flavor and an accurate presentation of the beers ideas are about two to three weeks out from its being packaged. Prior to that. It's mostly a mess with a hint of what it should be involved. There is definitely a grace period where beer tastes too fresh for its own good, and I'm going to presume the majority of ipa thrillseekers who facepush babies, and cut in line to get the latest juice bomb are indeed drinking it too fresh, and are not getting an accurate presentation of the brewers original intent.

 

Do you understand the chemistry of what is occurring over that duration of time? I frequently state that during that initial package time the flavors 'meld' together but I really do not know what the science is here.

Cheers!

 

Nope. What my art wired brain and its observations and listening to people "smarter" than me has surmised is that in each instance prior to packaging it at the production facility or in the homebrewers kitchen. A new element has been introduced to enable the proper carbonation levels; Regardless of its being CO2, or bottle conditioning with whatever- That this introduction of something new into solution acts as a disrupter to the finished product and needs time to settle and become part of that original idea the brewer intended of the beer you want to consume.