Imperial Hefeweizen

Sorry, not gonna be dragged into the whole Märzen, Fest, Wies'n debate on St. Patrick's Day!* Pass me an Irish-style Stout, please... and wasn't this thread about "Imperial Hefeweizen?"

*And in 2 more days we can go all crazy on Starkbier!

 

This is a valid point but to be fair, Weizenbock tends to be darker and maltier than hefeweizen despite the yeast-forward similarities. Maybe pale Weizenbock? Wheat Helles Bock?

 

Ha, I have some Guinness in the fridge for later. (seriously, I like Guinness)

Is there such thing as an Imperial Dry Irish Stout? That would be somewhat pertinent the discussion.

I always forget what Starkbier is, I always think of the Beer Advocate on here...Fastenbier should be hitting shelves soon correct? (Just make sure it's not leftovers from last year...ugh)

 

So, great for the USA. Why impose your American standards on the history and Culture of Germany? Not quite making sense.

 

Vitus: https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/252/35625/

Find some (hopefully fresh), buy 2, drink first bottle, thank me for the second. Maltier, yes. Darker? No.

 

Something wrong with that? Drinking an Extra Stout right now.

I think it's called "Foreign" Stout.

Doppelbock. Starkbierzeit (Strong Beer Time) is when all of the Bavarian breweries roll out the Doppelbock. And if you drink an Aventinus, I won't call foul.

 

Schneider calls it a (Weizen) Doppelbock.

https://schneider-weisse.de/weissbier/mein-aventinus

 

Exactly. But I've also had BA members tell me that there's really no such thing, no matter what the 145 year old originating brewery has to say.

 

Yes I'm aware of Vitus, and it is delicious. I said they "tend" to be darker than a normal hefeweizen, not all of the are. but that is a good example you gave of the lighter version. (darker examples: Ayinger, Aventinus, Scheider Weisse, Moonglow.)

 

That must factor into it. Looking beyond the actual beer quality and the outstanding reputation of everything associated with the brewery - with ties to religion, science, and learning... I also think that their importation into the US has a lot to do with it.

Maybe there are many German drinkers who seek out everything their country has to offer and still consider Weihenstephaner a benchmark delivery service, but the accessibility in the US certainly helps the situation over here. I don't know the specific history of its importation into the US, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some similarities with how Samuel Smith was received. I see Sam Smith's role in the US as almost a project to define certain British beer styles to the US beer enthusiast that was partially envisioned by the importer and succeeded (beyond?) expectations. They used to have multiple beers in the top list here and I can't help but think that the BeerAdvocate style list was somewhat influenced. Would a British drinker have put them on as high a pedestal? I'm not saying that the importer of Weihenstephaner played nearly as big a role in shaping the portfolio, but I have an uneducated hunch that they were in the right places at the right times over here. Maybe I'm off-base.

I'm with @AlcahueteJ on this. I would say that the BeerAdvocate style listings were leading you down the wrong path but you seem to be thinking beyond those anyway. Maybe you're measuring the beer against the wrong image regardless. Doesn't mean you have to like it though... nor that it's "dumbed down."

 

C'mon man, anything that doesn't kick you in the head with hops, alcohol, or both is "dumbed down," haven't you learned anything on BA?

 

In addition to Sam Smith's I've also thought of Fuller's as benchmarking british styles... At least definitely the ESB.

From when I was learning the history of the beers at Oktoberfest they had a lot of parallels to what's happening to Pilsners. German pilsner's since the mid 20th century have been quickly dropping in bitterness and a lot of other characteristics. You can compare the pilsner stats from the 90's to now and they've significantly changed. Likewise from what I'd heard the märzen style was predominate at Oktoberfest for a long time then the breweries started lightening the beer until it's gotten to the point now where it's just a bit stronger version of a Helles.

The Weihenstephaner Festbier was absolutely not rich and malty. It reminded me a lot of the german Helles' I've had but even less sweet malty. It may have been the beers age... But as has been pointed out the brewery chose to brew it when they did and release it in August. So I do blame the brewery for disappointing beers.

@AlcahueteJ I say the festbier is a dumbed down märzen because as the following link points out "
The Oktoberfestbiers that were served at the festival were actually Märzenbier, and were the indigenous Munich dunkels, all of which were supplied by the established local breweries. This all changed in 1872 when Josef Sedlmayr of Franziskaner (today part of Spaten) introduced an amber lager to Oktoberfest." then the following "Today’s festival biers are ceremoniously tapped as they have always been, but it should be noted that some are decidedly golden in color. Since the 1970s, as Oktoberfest has become more popular and drawn more attendees from around the world, the brews were reformulated to appease the shifting clientele. Those burnished gold versions are more similar to Munich helles, with a tad more heft."

http://allaboutbeer.com/article/marzenoktoberfest/

This is very different than saying that a munich helles is just a dumbed down vienna lager... The bohemian, viennese, and munich breweries had very different styles of beers. The modern ones are derivations of those. The helles is lighter than the traditional munich beers which if you look at Ron Pattinson's sites were all produced at least mostly with munich malt of course. They were dunkels and heavily malty märzen's. They were not as dry as the bohemian or austrian beers.

The helles was created as competition to pilsner-style beers and the bohemian bright lagers... Even then the helles lager was only created in the very late 19th century.

I appreciate that Ayinger and HP produce Oktoberfest beers that are the original märzen style for us instead of (or in addition to) the lighter versions produced for the modern Oktoberfest celebration.


But more back on topic. A lot of pictures that I find of the Ayinger Weizenbock are very light colored. Some are dark but I think the amount of light in the picture and direction it's coming from has a big impact on the perception in photographs. It's been a very long time since I've had it so I can't judge it now.
Again as everyone loves Live Oak I never complain about getting their Primus Weizenbock. I drank it at the brewery a few weeks ago and it was delicious... But an example of the darker versions...
I guess I'll have to try my hand at homebrewing some pale Weizenbock.

 

Maybe it's just a better type of beer to consume 2L at a time, or better designed for its main purpose.

 

How sad is that? Top brewery, with four killer beers: Weisse, Aventinus, Hopfenweisse and Eisbock. I could happily spend the rest of my life drinking just those four beers. And the
Aventinus Schnapps.

 

Can I randomly say that the conversation here has got much more civilised over the years. Much less shouting (from me included) and far more sense.

 

Expand on that a bit, and that's why I think Charles Finkel should be on an American Mt Rushmore of Beer, if there ever was one :
http://www.merchantduvin.com/about.php
Doing this since 1978-

Samuel Smith's was obviously a big part of their portfolio, and did take advantage of their role as an "ambassador" to the US- even reviving dormant styles such as Imperial and Oatmeal Stouts. The odd thing seems to be that we see SS differently than their native UK customers; but that's because their focus was on different styles for each market, and I bet they have sold a ton more stouts/porters over here than over there through the years.

 

I believe I said this earlier in this thread (or the recent thread about Weihenstephan's Hefeweissbier) tha Aventinus is one of my all time favorite beers.

It truly is sad that it can't get enough attention to rank higher, even sadder is that I don't see many local examples as it's not a "sexy" style, despite its heft.

But I look at that list as more of a fun thing to read, and this is fine with me. As long as the end result isn't Aventinus being removed from the shelves/taps at my local stores and bars.

No! You can't!

 

Unfortunately the hype machine only cares for Cantillon when it stops overseas. Its a crying shame, aventinus is amazing

 

Is this your reasoning for not replying to some of Roadkizzle's Märzen essay?

 

Must have missed that. Don't point me at it. Want to go to bed without foaming at the mouth.