Let' talk about black grains...

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by JimmyTango, Oct 12, 2012.

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  1. JimmyTango

    JimmyTango Initiate (0) Aug 1, 2011 California

    I'm brewing a stout this weekend. I have only brewed enoug black beers to get a feel for a couple of black malts and while I was putting the recipe together for this one I found it hard to get a good idea of what I was shopping for.

    It looks to me that there are 4 main variants on grain foasted to "blackness":

    - Chocolate
    - Roasted Barley (unmalted?)
    - Black Malt (black patent?)
    - De-bittered (caraffa and such)

    Am I right in believing that these are all processed differently, and that each maltster has thier own version of each?

    What can we expect from them flavor wise? Relative to each other for simplicity (e.g. "Black Malt is less nutty thatn chocolate and less ashy than roasted"... or whatever the appropriate comparison is in this case)...

    Thanks for the endless depth of knowledge and know-how!
     
    #1 JimmyTango, Oct 12, 2012
  2. Ruslanchik

    Ruslanchik Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2008 Texas

    #2 Ruslanchik, Oct 12, 2012
  3. JimmyTango

    JimmyTango Initiate (0) Aug 1, 2011 California

    I ask because I currently have all the "blackness" in the recipe coming for 12oz (6%) of Black Patent, but after reading severaly conflicting descriptions I'm not sure if I'm making an ash-tray Stout, or a barely-black tasting beer that needs more variety of roast to taste appropriately roasty.
     
    #3 JimmyTango, Oct 12, 2012
  4. Ruslanchik

    Ruslanchik Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2008 Texas

    My understanding is that black patent is super strong and does not give a good flavor when used in large amounts. You might consider including some black roasted barley and chocolate for more complexity.

    Others here can give more details on amounts than me...
     
    #4 Ruslanchik, Oct 12, 2012
  5. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2006 New York

    Black patent gets a bad rap, it's really not much different than roasted barley, I've had stouts that were 10% patent that were fine.
     
    #5 Homebrew42, Oct 12, 2012
    NiceFly likes this.
  6. JimmyTango

    JimmyTango Initiate (0) Aug 1, 2011 California

    EDIT: ^^Thanks guys!

    I'll continue...

    My experience so far:

    Caraffa II in a Black Steam Beer-- Only balck grains was 1lb Caraffa II: Very subtle roasted character. No "char," not nutty. Almost smoke-like toastyness.

    Pale Chocolate in a Big Bitter Brown-- only roasted grains was 1lb Pale Chocolate: Nutty, toasty, warmly roasty with no burnt flavors. Signigicantly roasty.

    Chocolate in a Robust Smoked Porter-- Only balck grains was 1lb Chocolate: Rich, VERY roasted, with a hint of burnt toast but no ashy dryness.
     
    #6 JimmyTango, Oct 12, 2012
  7. nathanjohnson

    nathanjohnson Initiate (0) Aug 5, 2007 Vermont

    I've been digging pale chocolate malt recently. I really like it's contributions to milds and brown ales.
     
    #7 nathanjohnson, Oct 12, 2012
  8. leedorham

    leedorham Initiate (0) Apr 27, 2006 Washington

    I'm not the biggest fan of black patent. However, I think people exaggerate the "ashtray" effect of it. 6% will give you a good roasted character. What black patent doesn't do is give you the chocolate & coffee that chocolate malts and roasted barley give.

    That being said, with only 6% so far, you have room in a stout for more roasted malts. Don't be afraid to go up to 15% with them. You wouldn't want 15% black patent, but a combo of patent, chocolate, and roast at that percentage is perfectly alright in a stout.
     
    #8 leedorham, Oct 12, 2012
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  9. JimmyTango

    JimmyTango Initiate (0) Aug 1, 2011 California

    Where would y'all say Roasted Barley and Chocolate differ?
     
    #9 JimmyTango, Oct 12, 2012
  10. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2006 New York

    Roasted barley is darker and gives you more dark coffee and roasted character whereas chocolate malt gives you more toasty, chocolatey, and nutty character.
     
    #10 Homebrew42, Oct 12, 2012
    JimmyTango likes this.
  11. JimmyTango

    JimmyTango Initiate (0) Aug 1, 2011 California

    ^thanks
     
    #11 JimmyTango, Oct 12, 2012
  12. Ruslanchik

    Ruslanchik Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2008 Texas

    Do you want to share your recipe so those of us not brewing a stout this weekend can live vicariously?
     
    #12 Ruslanchik, Oct 12, 2012
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  13. Unbrewery

    Unbrewery Initiate (0) Dec 28, 2011 Massachusetts

    I've always thought that chocolate malt provides little in the way of actual chocolate flavor. I always get more toffee/caramel from it. YMMV, of course.
     
    #13 Unbrewery, Oct 12, 2012
  14. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Chocolate malt comes in several colors and from several maltsters. A few months ago I made a Sweet Stout which included two different chocolate malts. Two BJCP judges commented that they thought it had actual chocolate in it.
     
    #14 VikeMan, Oct 12, 2012
  15. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California

    Simpson's Pale chocolate and Chocolate? I've received some similar comments after using these malts in my milk stouts and was curious if they're the same malts you used...
     
    #15 barfdiggs, Oct 12, 2012
  16. Unbrewery

    Unbrewery Initiate (0) Dec 28, 2011 Massachusetts

    Do share those malts. Would love to have a go at something like that!
     
    #16 Unbrewery, Oct 12, 2012
  17. JimmyTango

    JimmyTango Initiate (0) Aug 1, 2011 California

    No problem! Riffing on a robust smoked-honey porter recipe I put together this summer. Going for something roasty, dry, full, and deep.

    For 5 gal:

    OG:1.058
    IBU: 34 Garetz
    SRM: 41

    10# Optic~79%
    1.5# Golden Naked Oats~11%
    .75# Brown Malt~6%
    .75# Black Patent~6%
    .25# Chocolate Malt~4%

    1oz Willamette @ 60min
    1oz Willamette @ 30min

    US-05 at 67F

    Probably going to add one or more of the following: Cherry juice, american oak, chocolate, cinamon, or vanilla.
     
    #17 JimmyTango, Oct 12, 2012
  18. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I'm thinking that in this batch it was Crisp Pale Chocolate and Crisp Chocolate. But I'll confirm later at home.
     
    #18 VikeMan, Oct 12, 2012
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  19. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Dark malts from different maltsters can be very different as far as the color they are roasted to.
     
    #19 hopfenunmaltz, Oct 12, 2012
    EdH likes this.
  20. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Confirmed.
     
    #20 VikeMan, Oct 12, 2012
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