Visiting Tillamook, Summer 2017 Update

Just some beer folk. The
quiet majority, which
I sense, esteems you...

 

OK, not as long of a day today, and I'm not as deep into the "stress relievers" as yesterday. And, this thread took turns I did not see coming. But, I ain't all that bright, so.....

Not only is @John_M a highly respected member of this community, a worthy moderator for our, uh, unique group of members, I consider him a friend. That is not a word I use lightly. I have tons of "buddies", "homes", "guy I know", etc, "friend" is a word that I use with caution, and must be earned. I could not disagree with John more on this matter. He is just plain wrong. It's OK, it happens to the best of us (uh, I was even wrong once).

I did not get from @deGardebrewing 's post here, their FB post, or the description on the the DG website, any of the aspects John sees. Clearly, there were issues with shitlording in the old version of Keepers, or else DG would not have chopped it. I am not even a little bit familiar with the winery-type clubs that have been referenced here, nor am I the type to join one. Admittedly though, DG is one of the few breweries where I would consider buying in.

I ask of y'all to think back on all the comments and threads on various releases here in the NW forum: Fremont, Holy Mountain, Grape Lotion, et al. A brewery cannot win, in the eyes of the modern beer consumer, no matter the format they think works the best for their brewery; somebody's feelings are gonna get hurt, panties will get bunched, tears are gonna fall. People gonna people. Everyone (OK, almost everyone, maybe there is a Mother Theresa of the beer nerd world out there. Somewhere.) thinks The Best System is the one that works best for them personally, myself included.

If a brewery (DG here) thinks that the previous system was too much bother (for a potential variety of reasons [uh, if certain hotels in a small city were turning away potential business on release party weekends, that is not the fault of DG, that is on us] and the general headaches involved in a thing like a release), but still want to flex their creative muscles, make some beers they might not have otherwise, have some fun, and, yes, perhaps earn a couple extra sheckles, how do they do it? A membership club.

After reading the above mentioned sources, one thing I noticed was the fact that any "membership" beer might be available either on tap, for onsite bottles, and (maybe) unannounced to-go purchase. What better way to step on shitlord toes than to get them to pay (in advance mind you, before you've even created the beer), then sell it to Bubba Local a week later, on random day? Eliminates a nice chunk of Gray Market value right there.

Look, if someone in, say, Rhode Island is that much of a fanatic, that they're willing to not only pay the membership, but develop a relationship with someone to physically pick-it-up-for-me-bro, and cover all the shipping. Fine. Now, a guy a half hour down the road buys his, and 4 mules, memberships, then sells or trades at a premium, how can ya stop that? And, it was happening with the old system.

We cannot stop the shitlorders, but we can make the bastards work harder for their ill-gotten booty. I see the new DG system as an honest attempt to keep things, if not truly "local", at least "semi-regional". It's probably doomed, but it seems at least an honest effort.


TL;DR version: Fuck you, read the whole thing.

 

You mean my comparison to Cantillon and Ale Apothecary? Perhaps my post doesn't read the way it was meant to. With those comparisons I was referring to availability. Even when I said I have neither time nor money I didn't follow it up with "to buy your expensive bottles" but "to drive to Tillamook". I was comparing your availability,not your price, when I said "i can get Ale Apothecary more easily". I didn't say more "cheaply". I didn't say I actually buy Ale Apothecary either, because as you state they are $30 on a good day, but that's a different conversation. In fact I said that I buy and enjoy the percentage of your beers that make it to distribution and that those beers are "fairly priced". You'll see those very words if you re-read it. At first I though you were cherry-picking my post to make a point, but after reflecting I think after John's post you were expecting more of an attack on price points. Either way, I feel like what you responded to was not really what I was trying to say.

Ultimately, I was attempting to strike a balance, to defend your pricing model - which you have every right to do as you please with - while also pointing out that it excludes a number of Oregonians who don't roll so highly but who love craft beer. I have every right to bring that voice into the conversation as well, because although in the craft beer echo chamber, phantom chairs and proxies and mules and crowler-line-rage, and $30 bottles seem the norm, but outside that bubble are every-day craft beer drinkers, most of whom would not be able to buy into a beer club/society or see the value in it.

Which is kinda the point I was trying to make in the first place. Your new club can be both filled with value for those who can afford it (or who fnd certain things valuable) and way too expensive for those who cannot or who have no interest in the added value. Both your and John's points are true. Now if you feel like we're inferring things about your motives or beliefs, you should by all means respond resoundingly, but you don't get to decide what does or does not have value to me. Like beertunes mentions above, it doesn't seem like breweries can "win" in these forums (and I've tried to defend Great Notion in the past as well) but why should they "win"? I think every brewery should be able to use any legal business model they choose, but I don't think they get to decide how the market feels about that. You can say that releasing a small percentage of your beers to the little guy is inclusive and I can say that offering a small percentage of your beers to the high-end is exclusive and we can both be right.

 

Thanks for the clarification. I tried to edit my post above to add that it was fair for you to call me out on the availability issue to a certain extent, at least the way I phrased it. The Cantillon comparison was an exaggeration meant to imply that for an in-state brewery your beers ought (in my opinion) to be way more available than an infamously obscure brewery. But while it's true that their fruited sours are as easy to find on draft as yours (like once a year maybe) the claim I made was simply not true and it's an unfair comparison. I could get Bu and that Jackie O collab on tap right now if I wanted which disproves my claim right there.

And in fact, one of the best beers I've ever had (this is not hyperbole) - Nectarine Premiere - was on draft, so I can't complain. Maybe it'll happen again some day.

 

It always amuses me that there is this underlying ethics / morality conversation that pops up so often among the BA / beer enthusiast community.

I have seen some of the most esteemed and best breweries on here subjected to some unwritten code of how they are supposed to do business on a regular basis. Unless it involves selling out to AB-inBev (which i think actually hurts hardworking people and other negatives), I think damn near everything else is up to the discretion of the brewery and we can decide to support or not. I thoroughly enjoy beer, but I feel sometimes that its held to some virtuous standard as if we are helping cure cancer.

none of these brewers / breweries owe any of us a god damn thing. and in fact, as enthusiasts of the beer culture at large, we (being in the PacNW) are lucky has hell to have so many great options . if their prices / practices annoy you, dont support them, and take your money to any of the other 1,000 places. but dont act like they have done some great wrong to the universe if they dont release their special beer the right way or if they decide to hike prices up to meet demand.

that's just my opinion. I just feel like there is a very nitpicky-ish vibe around here at times, especially in light that the community in this part of the country is 100x better behaved and most of the breweries do a great job of keeping things on the level. Because honestly there is WAY too much competition out here for any brewery to be out-and-out assholes to anybody

 

With all due respect, John, you seem to be fixated on two small details--ie, $260 and 8 bottles of beer--which are part of a much larger picture. And because of this you can't see the forest for the trees. If that was all that was being offered, you'd have every right to balk, but it isn't. There's more to it than that. Considerably more. I'm no accountant, not even an armchair one; nor am I privy to any information about the membership which hasn't been posted online. But let me take a stab at this. Full disclaimer: I know nothing, about anything, as always.

Let's first assume those 8 bottles go for $160 retail. May be high (knowing de Garde) or it may be low, depending on the bottles, but that's the big chunk right there. So, what does the remaining $100, give or take, get you (and, by corollary, what does it cost to provide)?

- A private tour and tasting for up to two people.
- A unique piece of glassware.
- A dedicated salaried and benefited staff position to manage this program and personally look after members.
- A 17% reduction in their capacity to brew other beers, some portion of which may well be more profitable for them to brew. (I think I followed that part right, but like all of this, I'm not entirely sure.)
- Storage for your beers and goods in quarterly increments.
- Online bottle purchase option for members-only and many public releases (presumably, in addition to being a cool perk and fantastic convenience, there is some new web hosting/service fee associated with it, which must be rolled in).
- First right to renew for next year's membership.
- Others that I've overlooked or which have been hinted at by Trevor's comment that he sees the currently stated benefits as but a starting point.
- Etc...(?)

Now, I'm not personally going to apply to be a Keeper this year or any other year, but in looking at all of this--the unique and added convenience, accessibility to dG beers, privileges, services, etc...--there's some real good value for your dollar there by my lights. You may still disagree, and that would be perfectly fine, but I do hope you are at least truly seeing all of this. Nothing that I've read in what you've written makes me feel that you are, I'm afraid to say.

Finally, while I said yesterday that I thought you've been respectful in your posts, was it really necessary to say that Trevor has an "inability to empathize with people who are interested in buying his beer"? Some people, whether they see the value in it or not, will certainly be priced out of this club--that is okay, and no one's fault--but that statement, like one or two of your others, just sounds mean, ad hominem, and completely unfounded. And I'm not even the one whose character and integrity is being questioned. Imagine how it must sound to him. You're too nice, fair, and good a guy for that...

 

With the caveat that I'm going to ignore the last paragraph of your post:

Jesus, I don't think I've ever agreed with you more completely. What is this world coming to?

 

It’s not hyperbole to say that I’ve never, ever, ever known a brewery-owner who has had more empathy for people wanting access to their beer than Trevor has, on both the ease- and price-point–side of things.

 

Ahh, if you really examined the history, I think you'd find we are in perfect agreement somewhere north of 80% of the time, and even if our styles and personas tend to be quite different.

And while I was certainly hesitant to add the last paragraph in my post, it also struck me as something that had to be included. Put yourself in Trevor's shoes, reading what John wrote the past couple days. Our good moderator may have meant no personal harm, but his remarks would have cut deeply into even the hardest soul...

I'm not omniscient, but I see no reason to disagree. That seems a central and defining tenet of everything he and de Garde have stood for since their inception. And I will continue to maintain that I don't think anything has changed in the least with this year's Keepers membership, the gripes and grievances, from a vocal minority, about its increased cost notwithstanding...

 

Dang, you are a blind optimist, aren't you? I tend to be very suspicious of people with whom I have even a 50% agreement rate. 80%? That's the beer talking.

 

So will this be based on who sent emails in first or will there be a lottery and random people will be selected if they emailed? Thanks!

 

Edward Abbey you
sir, are the reason I keep
coming to this place


seriously, the most level headed online poster I've ever encountered.

 

Perhaps neither? Who knows... I do have faith @deGardebrewing will be making selections in a way that they feel is best for the Keepers membership, both in terms of creating a community of people that truly appreciates what they do, and in an effort to reduce shitlording around their more limited releases, to the extent they can. Personally, I don't mind the mystery.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Originally I assumed the value of the keepers came mostly from the bottles, I think other value is being seriously underrated (at least by myself...I wont speak for anyone else). The exclusive tour seems pretty fantastic, and does seem to place a emphasis for people who are "local" (or have enough disposable time and income to fly out) but it is a value that proxying shitlords will not be able to participate in, and thus may dissuade them from purchasing the membership? (Im sure this is wishful thinking). In any case Trevor and the whole crew at dG have been so exemplary in their culture at dG that I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt without full "transparency" (which would be what exactly? a cost analysis spreadsheet of all of dGs business practices?). While I won't be purchasing a membership I will still gladly spend money on all the dG beer that I can find as it is still a fantastic brewery and value.

 

I do enjoy some mystery, however allow me to put forth a different perspective. Based on what I have seen so far there is a high likelihood that this Keepers community will be a group of people that I would, for the most part, not want to be around (a bunch of out-of-towners that are willing to fly across the country multiple times per year for beer). No offense to those people; I'm sure most of them are great ... just not my type of folk. That is of course if dG is utilizing a random selection process (which is probably the most fair way to do it).

However, if dG is somehow attempting to selectively put together a Keepers community that is more local, less hype-driven, and just made up of decent people that don't give a shit about secondary market value and/or trade value and really just enjoy and appreciate their beer then I might have thought harder about whether I wanted to put my name in the hat. I have no idea how they might go about this sort of thing ... likely not practical. My point is that if they are doing something other than random selection it might have pushed me just enough to send that email.

EDIT: Regarding the price: I think it is about right where I expected it would be. I get that some don't see the value there, but that's just it ... this membership includes a lot of items/perks that are totally subjective when it comes to value. Some will see it as a great value while others don't. This is not unexpected.

 

Pure speculation on my part, but I'd venture dG's selection process will be about as "random" as the selection process was for HF's Collected Works membership... Of course, only time will tell.