What's brewing July edition

How much blood orange are u racking it on to?

 

Brewed up what was supposed to be a session Stout in the low 4 abv range with cinnamon and Vanilla yesterday. Used my newly purchased grain mill for the first time and got an unexpected 87% efficiency so now its going to be closer to 5 abv. Was wondering why my efficiency had been low the past 4-5 batches and I think it's safe to say the LHBS mill wasn't getting the job done.

Also bottled my Double IPA with Citra, Amarillo, and Cascade so it was a busy day! Not as good as my last DIPA batch but overall its a pretty solid beer.

 

Lots of lambic starts out smelling and tasting pretty horrible, but extended aging can do wonders, as esterification takes time, as does hydrolysis of unwanted compounds like mercaptans.

 

Actually haven't dumped it yet...gave it a taste last night...the Citra/Simcoe dry hops along with the vanilla are trying to win out, but still get that distinct aspirin/band-aid foot note.Guessing I'll hold onto it until I need a keg. Are you implying that these compounds could fade in time?

 

Mercaptans usually fade and isovaleric acid can be esterified into ethyl isovalerate (fruity, sweet, berry-like with a ripe, pulpy fruit nuance, artificial grape), so it's certainly possible. Phenols, like 4EP and 4EC, can be hydrolyzed, but are usually "permanent" defects. Worth the time to see if they fade, though, if you have it. LOTS of overlap in the sensory analysis of different compounds, so, without a more complex analysis, like MS or HPLC, you're going to just have to wait and see.

 

Na . . . just a nerdy homebrewer type dude.

 

There's SO much neat information out there and a lot of it is readily available. MUCH better than only a few years ago, and it's not like the information wasn't there, it's just that it's available now.

Helps me make sense of the ingredients that I use, the techniques that I use with those ingredients, and the result that I should expect. Not that it makes things 100% predictable, or anything, but it gets me closer.

 

alright then....I'll hold onto for the time being, but unfortunately hosting a party end of August and probably going to need that keg for it, so the infected batch probably won't see September which I'm guessing wouldn't be nearly long enough for any serious changes to occur. Could transfer to a carboy, but don't think I'm that dedicated....

Re-brewing that recipe though probably this weekend.

 

Post a sensory on it before dumping, would you?

Not planning on cooling this one in the woods, are you?

 

You sound like you have command of the souring chemistry and language. I should probably start a post for this question but I'd like to get your opinion first.

I'll try to summarize here....

• A couple of years ago I had some old ale with high amounts of diacetyl.
• I've heard/read that Brett and maybe other souring organisms can transform diacetyl into other more pleasing flavor compounds.
• So I bottled up the diacetyl beer and dosed them individually with Brett Brux, Brett Claus, Lactic and Peddio cultures to see how they would change.
• I stored them in my garage for 2 years.
• I did a tasting recently and here is some of what I found.

The ones with Brett were the most drinkable and had the least amount of diacetyl, comparatively. They also darkened the most, it turned a very dark brown color. It also developed a smokey coffee flavor. So I would say it did help reduce the diacetyl but the end product was still sub par.

The ones with Ped still had some diacetyl notes and some strong fake coffee creamer flavors, ie tasted like those coffee creamers with hazelnut and vanilla. This one also had the smokey coffee flavor. But was not as dark brown, it darkened slightly but not much.

The ones with Lacto hardly changed color at all, it was still very light. The diacetyl seemed to be diminished in this on as well, but the body was very thin and flavors were just boring. It left you not wanting any more of it, not offensive, but just blah.

EvenMoreJesus, if you would be so kind, could you translate this into the proper terminology? I think it would help provide more insight to me and others..

 

I'll try my best. I'm not a chemist, but I do have a pretty solid science background.

Do you remember which species of pedio and lacto that you used? I'd assume P. damnosis and L. brevis, but I'd hate to just guess.

I would think the darkening was from oxidation.

The smoke and bitterness (coffee) would probably have been due to transformation of hydroxycinnamic acids in your old ale into vinyl and/or ethyl phenols. There's a pretty descriptive list on the Milk the Funk wiki Brettanomyces page. If you are so inclined, I can link it for you or you can just Google those five words.

Both pediococcus and lactobacillus species are interesting from an enzymatic perspective. The difference here would have probably been a question of oxygen utilization and metabolism (heterofermentative v. homofermentative). Couldn't comment on the coffee creamer characteristic, as I've never encountered it or heard about anyone getting it in their beers.

In the end, however, if you want to get rid of diacetyl, all you have to have is active yeast to do so. Either sacch. or brett. species will do the job, but sacch. tends to be a better choice because it grows faster than brett does.

 

I've got a fair amount of Cascade and Citra hops on hand, as well as a couple ounces of Galaxy, so I'm going to throw them together in some combination and brew an IPA tonight. Pilsen (because I need to use it up), Biscuit and Honey malts are going into grain bill.

I've heard that Biscuit malt blends well with Honey malt, and I just happen to have some leftover from a Dubbel that I brewed, so I'm going to give it a try.

I loved the bit of Honey malt in the AP NE IPA, and I want to see how it comes across in a larger quantity, so I'll be using 12 oz in a 5 gallon batch.

 

I'm using 25.3 ounces (one bottle) of Italian Volcano Juice in primary (adding at high-ish krausen this evening) and then another 25.3 ounces in the keg. (5.1 gallon batch.)

This is the second time around for this recipe. The first time, I wanted to use fresh blood oranges, but they were out of season. Second choice was puree...could only find a type that has to be shipped refrigerated at a ridiculous cost. So the juice it was (though it's not particularly cheap either). I (and others) liked the result enough that I'm doing the same this time around.

 

Get a tube. This photo makes me cringe.

 

Just to clarify, because of hot-side aeration?

 

I know it's August now but I'm going to finish this thread...
Your assumptions on the cultures were correct.
The darkening was definitely due to oxidation. I forgot to mention, because I forgot that until I looked at my notes,the beer was also oxidized. But the different cultures seemed to have an effect on the color, which surprised me.
I also should have mentioned that the diacetyl in this beer came from unwanted sources not from fermentation issues. That's why I was experimenting with the cultures. So I think I learned from this that Brett will help clear up some diacetyl (regardless of source). I've read this many times, but never really saw any hard evidence from anyone of why this is and what the mechanism is. side note: I also tried refermentation on this same sample, it did not work.
It's hard for me to keep all of the chemistry terminology in my head.
Thanks for the time to respond and
Thanks for the Milk the Funk ref, I'll peruse that.
Cheers

 

Haha, I have one and use it, I just had it off for my Vorlauf so I could see the flow better and take a cool picture