The freshness craze

Sort of, but both oxidation and ester hydrolysis occur whether live yeast or bacteria is present or not and, in actuality, if Brettanomyces is involved, the oxidation will be minimized as Brett is an oxygen scavenger.

Definitely possible that I read too far into that comment.

 

What you've said makes sense.Yet it runs counter to all other explanations I have ever read or heard; which is that Brett yeast takes much longer to finish fermenting and imparting their characteristics (esters, phenols) do than standards yeasts, and when bottled these brett yeasts still have work to do. Therefore, the beer isn't "ready" in terms of the full funk character that the beer can/will achieve. So, from that standpoint, it's more than just the esters fading off and the phenols taking front seat.

 

Well I think Jean Van Roy of Cantillon might disagree with you that beers containing Brett and Lactobacilli don't continue to ferment in the bottle.

https://www.cantillon.be/gueuze-en?lang=fr

 

Despite my stated beliefs, I have a huge cellar of my own(my handle is CellarGimp). Mostly because I just don't get around to drinking the high gravity stuff that often and I know they will likely not go bad. However, for the most part (yes, there are a few exceptions), I do not believe they are getting better. Sure, many of the beers are still great when I open them. Some have fallen off a bit but are still delicious. Others are merely shells of their former selves but drinkable. And a very rare few are soy sauce.

 

While Brettanomyces species usually do take longer to fully ferment wort than do their Saccharomyces brethren, it is only because of their slower growth rate and increased carbon source (sugar type) utilization.

That said, the VAST majority of esters are created during the logarithmic phase of yeast growth and volatile phenols are created depending upon enzymatic capacity of each individual yeast strain. Brett. species each have different activity levels of hydroxycinnamic acid decarboxylate and vinyl phenol reductase enzymes, which take acids like ferulic acid and turn them into flavors like clove and spice of 4VG and 4EG. This conversion depends not only on the strength of those enzymes, but on the amount of those acids in solution, and conversion also happens rather quickly in the fermentation process.

It's really not. At least in reference to the interplay of esters and phenols created by Brett sp. Now, there are certain other aspects of aging beers that might make the beers in question different, but once there are no fermentable sugars in solution, the yeast are not active, so enzymatic activity is essentially dormant.

 

Not reading where he says that, but the link does say that they age the bottled beer for a year so that it will condition after blending. Is that what you mean?

Also, lambic beer does not contain much, if any, lactobacillus sp. It contains Pediococcus sp.

http://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/317.html

 

Rob, beers brewed using Brett will indeed ‘transform’ with time in the bottle. Another example in addition to Goose Island Sofie is Orval.

Below is some musings by David Lodgson on this topic:

“I think of one of the things that stood out for me from one of the first times I tasted that beer years and years ago is the transformation of a beer with the Brettanomyces,” says David Logsdon, of Logsdon Farmhouse Ales in Hood River, Oregon. Logsdon brews a number of beers with Brett, including flagship Seizoen Bretta, which won the Gold Medal in the American Brett Ale category at the Great American Beer Festival in 2012.

“That’s the one thing I could take away from what Orval’s inspired me for, besides the style of beer that they brew, is the longevity the beer potentially has with that refermentation,” says Logsdon. “Most people, when they go into a bottle shop, they’re looking for the freshest beer possible. They don’t want an IPA that’s been sitting on a shelf for a year. Whereas when people go seeking our beers out, they look for the oldest beer possible, oftentimes.”

http://allaboutbeer.com/article/orval-born-of-a-legend/

I have read where folks have stated that the head brewer of Orval prefers this beer with 6 months of bottle aging.

Cheers!

 

Glad to see in information in that link. But he ignores a caveat or two in the research study which he cites at the end.

The important part of what Van Roy says is that when Gueuze is bottled it is a usually a blend of 1, 2, and 3 year old Lambics.

Since there are lactobacilli in the 1 year old lambic they will continue to make a contribution during seconday fermentation.

http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/GG/FACULTY/jahren/GG711jahren/readings/DeKeers1996.pdf

While the Pedio is indeed important in the whole picture and may be what ends up eventually all that is left alive in the bottled Gueuze when secondary fermentation eventually ends, lacto will have continued playing a role in the final product because of the blending in of the one year old lambic.

 

I seem to be missing where you are getting that there are Lactobacillus sp. in Lambic. Can you point it out to me? From all the research that I've seen, Pediococcus sp. are the only lactic acid bacteria in Lambic, as Lacto sp. are inhibited by hop related compounds and Pedio sp., especially P. damnosis, tend not to be.

 

In the article I linked to there is a table showing a set of curves of the levels of various bacteria present in the lambic as it ages. For example one line shows Enteric bacteria intially present but effectively having "died off" within about 2 months. At the age of 12 months for the lambic there are still lactobacilli present.

 

Ahh . . . I see. That table lists "Lactic Acid Bacteria" which both Pediococcus and Lactobacillus are. On the last page of the article it states the following:

"The lactic acid bacteria created during this phase are responsible for the sour-vinous character of lambic. They are mostly of the Pediococcus genus, which converts sugars to lactic acid."

 

Yes, we more or less agreed on that. But notice there is a critical difference between "mostly" and "only."

Even minorities can have a voice that get's heard.

 

I had Sofie on draught today at Old Chicago. The bottles in town are 2013. Cool to make a comparison though not at the same time.