Chimay Yeast History?

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by honkey, Sep 20, 2017.

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  1. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
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    This is possibly a topic for the homebrewing forum, but as it does not specifically concern homebrewing, I thought I'd post the question here. I have been reading a lot about Belgian styles recently. I've felt like my biggest gap in beer style knowledge has been Belgian beers, mostly because I'm just not a big fan of phenolic flavors. As I've read about the history of styles, I came across a few mentions of Wyeast's bank of yeast cultured from Chimay being different from Chimay's current yeast strain. It seems most sources believe that this is due to the evolution of the yeast rather than Chimay intentionally making a difference, but at least one source said that Chimay. Here is the quote from a BYO (https://byo.com/body/item/636-fermenting-belgian-style-beers) article:

    "Wyeast acquired its 1214 more than 20 years ago from Chimay, and has monitored the yeast to make sure it hasn’t changed since. Chimay, on the other hand, “cleaned up” its yeast in the 1990s, so it’s not the same as it once was."

    Does anyone know which version of events is accurate? It's hard to imagine a 130 year old (at the time) brewery intentionally altering its house yeast strain, but if that is the case, it makes me wonder what their reasoning would have been and what the differences are. I would have assumed that if it was something intentional that it would be a case where they isolated colonies of yeast and re-selected a colony that they determined to be the most desirable, but that also sounds more involved than I would expect a trappist brewery to behave. Again though, my ignorance of Belgian styles and breweries could be a factor in my thought process.
     
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  2. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    I don't know about this specific instance, but I tend to doubt yeast banks' claims that they hold some sort of "authentic" strain of a brewer's yeast. When I bought a pitch of Brewing Science Institute's purported Koelsch yeast, I was tremendously disappointed; and I seriously doubt they have the Augustiner strain that they claim either. So in this case, I would tend to side with the monks of Chimay.
     
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  3. TongoRad

    TongoRad Grand Pooh-Bah (3,884) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Take this for what it's worth, but the scuttlebutt at the time was that they both cleaned up the yeast, and switched to closed conical fermenters. That seems to match up with what was in the BYO quote, but I haven't read anything authoritative beyond that myself.
     
  4. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
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    I wouldn't consider BSI in the same league as Wyeast. At least 3 Alabama breweries got contaminated yeast (Diastaticus contamination) from them all in the same week with at least 3 different yeast strains... These were the only ones discovered too, I'm sure there were more. BSI denied it even though each brewery had lab results from different independent labs showing the same contaminants. Examining yeast from them under a microscope also revealed huge variances in yeast cell size.
     
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  5. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    I trust this. Will never buy from them again. Not sure about the Wyeast claims....

    I heard about the switch to stainless, closed conicals. Of course this could have an effect on the house yeast strain in and of itself. I haven't heard anything about them "cleaning up" the yeast until now.
     
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  6. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    I'm a big fan of Imperial Organic because of their speed, price, and quantity of yeast cells. They have a strain that is reportedly from Augustiner. Wyeast has the same strain in their private collection. I find a lot of similar flavors to what I drank in Munich, but I tend to get more esters. I attribute this to my processes more than the strain being "significantly" different.
     
  7. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    Do you remember approximately when this was discussed? I got the impression (from the article) that this happened at a time before Internet forums were common. Switching to closed fermenters could definitely make a "cleaner" beer and the yeast would evolve pretty rapidly in different conditions. I would wonder why Wyeast would "clean' up the yeast, or how they would do so unless the assumption is that their propagation is being done in closed vessels and that is what has caused a change, but if their bank is from older yeast and they have monitored the source closely, it seems that it wouldn't be able to change in the short amount of time that propagation would occur.
     
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  8. TongoRad

    TongoRad Grand Pooh-Bah (3,884) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    It had to be in the period from the mid 90s to early 2000s; and I bet it's been covered somewhere in an article or book.

    Personally, I was sort of 'dormant' during that time (that's when my kids came along), and stopped keeping up with beer news like that in too much detail. But word did get around, and I still knew some people in the business. I just don't know how it originated, unfortunately.
     
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  9. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    @honkey The bigger Trappist breweries (Chimay, Westmalle) are said to have Labs that rival what the big breweries have, and are fully capable of doing yeast selection. I had read that in either the Yeast book, or more likely Brew Like a Monk.
     
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  10. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Interesting information. Although it would be unlikely that ALL three breweries had post-pitch contamination, do you know if any of them did pre-pitch microscopy on their yeast?
     
  11. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Below is what Stan Hieronymus has to say on this topic:

    “One of the more illustrative examples of this tendency to evolve comes from Stan Hieronymus’ Brew Like a Monk. In it he writes, “Left on their own, yeast strains change over time. So, while Wyeast may have kept its 1214 [yeast strain] much the same in the twenty years since it was taken from Chimay, Chimay’s itself likely changed.”

    http://allaboutbeer.com/article/the-secret-life-of-yeast/

    Cheers!
     
  12. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    This type of contamination isn't unique to small labs. White Labs, for instance, has sacch. contamination in much of its non-sacch. (brett & LAB) cultures. From what I understand, the Pure Pitch format has eliminated this, but not all of their cultures are available in that format.
     
  13. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    All 3 did. We were all having issues (secondary fermentation in bottles resulting in explosions on shelves and poor flocculation. Re-pitching the yeast resulted in phenols.) for a few week span and we all discussed it. We ordered pitches and sent them to independent labs without opening them. I had a suspicion that this was the case after doing yeast cell counts and noticing a huge irregularity in yeast cell sizes in their California Common yeast. When I learned what diastaticus was and what it could do, I realized immediately what the problem was and actually thought it was my own fault getting cross contaminations from French Saison yeast. The problems persisted even after changing all gaskets, hoses, and re-evaluating cleaning procedures. When I learned that other breweries were having the same issues we discussed it and the only thing we had in common was BSI, so we ordered the pitches and sent them to labs. I think the other breweries were using Irish Ale yeast and Chico Ale yeast so it wasn't limited to one yeast strain.
     
  14. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    While this may be true of the genetic drift that is inherent when using a yeast for multiple generations, it wouldn't be the case if both Chimay and Wyeast are propagating their yeast from a mother culture that remains the same and growing them in a brink before fermenting with them or sending them off to customers.
     
    #14 EvenMoreJesus, Sep 20, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  15. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    That is decidedly not good news for BSI.
     
  16. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    I actually feel a little bad mentioning it. It was 3 years ago, so maybe they've sorted it out by now. Then again, it took years for my brewery to fix its reputation and sales lag for a long time as a result. We had to discontinue a couple brands of beer.
     
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  17. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Hopefully they took it seriously. I know many people have told White Labs of the problem that I mentioned and Chris has basically pretended the problem didn't exist. It, like your BSI example, was confirmed by independent lab examination pre-pitch.
     
  18. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Not for nuthin', but you don't need a big lab or expensive equipment to isolate yeast. You just need the know-how and the proper equipment. Any serious brewery should be doing QC on their beers, so the same equipment should be available to isolate yeast.
     
  19. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Though I don't know specifics, it has certainly been bantered around that many breweries that have yeast lab analogues of their house yeast strain actually ferment with multiple yeast strains on purpose, so that an isolate of their yeast will produce a beer that is similar to theirs, but not an exact replica. Couple that with recipe formulation and fermentation techniques being held rather close to the vest and even if one DID have the same yeast, they, very well, might not come out on the other end with the same beer.
     
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  20. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Yes, I know homebrewers that could do that. From what I have read, the big Trappist breweries are not just Monks with a Petri dish and a loop. Some on BA would think that, but they are sophisticated. Jean DeClerck taught them after WWII, and they have advanced.
     
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