British-German beer style twins

If this were true, everyone would eventually make similar beers. As it is, they don't. Brewing traditions actually diverged not converged over time.

I'd say categorization of beer has been around much longer than that, but if you're talking about styles as defined by the BJCP, then, yeah, it's been about that long.

 

Alt has certainly reminded me of brown bitter in the past

 

This is certainly what I think. I think a mild or brown is much sweeter, discernibly less bitter, and hardly hoppy at all.

 

I think there's a lot of flavor overlap into the German dark/dunkel bocks too.

Lighter/paler German bocks have similarities to golden ales

The [Austrian] Vienna Lager was inspired by British lager makers, and the German Marzen grew out of popularity of the vienna lager. So, I would expect some parallels between those beer styles.

 

The hollow cane used to steal samples is one of the best beer stories.

 

Agreed... Me saying the Vienna Lager was "inspired" by British lagers was an understatement.

 

You sure it was British lagers though? I thought (or assumed) it was British ale.

 

Had the pleasure of working the 'education/presentation' tent at a beer fest a few years back and one of the better presentations highlighted the 'convergent evolution' of beer styles. It was incredibly fascinating for a number of reasons, but the example that still stands out to me is the Munich Dunkel vs English Brown. The presenters talked about the similar taste profiles of each and also provided some locally brewed examples of each for everyone to compare, obviously the biggest difference being lager vs ale.

 

I can't find the source now, but I thought I read that in Anton Dreher's time British lagers were popular and very well regarded, despite British ales rising to prominence later. If it's true that Dreher used stolen yeast [and British malting techniques] to create the vienna lager, then it makes sense the stolen yeast would be a lager variety. Also, ales and lagers haven't always had the same definitions through time/regions, so it's possible that detail is lost in the translations of history, but I'm no expert on historical beer linguistics. @patto1ro might have some information and according to him he has...

 

I don't know if Dreher and Sedlmayr actually used anything stolen as an ingredient in their beer making... as opposed to just analyzing samples and then using the data. I'd love to know more about the story, but I don't know if there's any reliable/verifiable info about it.

The story does highlight something that I think many people here don't realize. I think that folks probably look at German, British, Scottish, Belgian, etc beer, and view them as these great defined solitary things in a beer atlas, when the reality is that they are products of cross-pollination.

 

My understanding is that lagers were all dark and Continental brewers looked at British Pale Ales, wishing to create a pale lager too.
Dreher visited the Bass brewery (where he was given a hydrometer too) which was purely an Ale brewery.

 

My understanding is that lagers did not become popular in Britain until well after the World War II period.

There is some discussion here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-filter/11258276/How-the-UK-became-a-nation-of-lager-drinkers.html

Perhaps Ron (@patto1ro) can provide his personal insight on this matter.

Cheers!

 

Looks like he got the lager yeast from Gabriel Sedlmayr, after trying unsuccessfully to make a pale ale.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2015/06/dutch-lager-styles-1870-1960-part-two.html

@zid @marquis @JackHorzempa

 

This thread has taken an turn for the awesome! Thanks for all the historical info, fellas!

 

Neat... and thanks for the correction, I don't want to spread misinformation. I should have poked around Ron's website a little more.

 

Dreher originally tried to brew a top-fermenting Pale Ale when he got back to Vienna. It was a failure, so he got some yeast from Sedlmayer and Vienna Lager was born.

No-one in the UK was brewing Lager at the time of Dreher and Sedlmayer's trip to the UK. their trip actually prompted the first UK-brewed Lager when Sedlmayer sent yeast to an Edinburgh brewer he'd become friends with. Though that didn't last long.

Lager was virtually unkown in the UK until a Paris exhibition in the 1860's where DCreher's Lager was a big hit. I prompted Lager to be imported into the UK and what was most of that Lager? Dreher's.

 

Exactly.

 

Agreed! I sincerely appreciate when a single inquiry/statement evolves into a substantive, robust discussion on forums. It is very educational and inspires one to do further reading on the topic(s).

 

You know that the two posts below say two different things, right?

 

The history of England alone is a study in cultures and genetics melding over millennia. Those European boundaries have always been fluid; with languages, cuisine, beverages, religion, legal standards.......Germany may seem a bit more homogeneous about everything, but it's less so than it seems. All that German/French/Nordic/Dutch blood in Great Britain surely has a penchant for Euro lager. But these beers came way later. The dark ales seem to have the greatest similarities from the continent to the isles.