British-German beer style twins

I would probably say it was an odd take on a Marzen, but still review it as is.

 

And rate it... ?

 

BTW -- BA doesn't talk about reviewing to-style?

Keep Style in Mind
We don't expect everyone to judge like a pro, but keeping the beer's style in mind will help you approach each beer a bit more objectively.

Pro tips:

• Check out BeerAdvocate's Beer Styles. They’re not perfect and need an overhaul, but it's a good place to start.
• Review with an open mind. Judge the beer for what it's trying to be, not what you think the beer should be; like that that kick-ass India Pale Ale that you just finished drinking.
• Don't review styles that you know you don't like. Your opinion will be tainted, and it's not fair to the brewery. A beery characteristic that you might not like could be due to style and shouldn't be deemed a flaw. Examples:
  • Buttery notes (diacetyl) in a Scotch Ale
  • Sourness in a Lambic
  • Intense smokiness in a Rauchbier
• Check out the Beer Judge Certification Program (BJCP) and Brewers Association beer style guidelines, which are used by judges at homebrew and professional competitions.

Another thing I never really noticed, the Bros promote BJCP as a source of info.

 

After my hackles had lowered, I might consider whether I like it or not. I do not give ratings in any review. Though,I would likely never try that one again. Hacker-Pschorr and Spaten occupy my Oktoberfest habits. One being drier than the other.

 

I think that might equate with my spit-take -- taking that first drink of X-style and finding it to be F-style.

But I agree on the liking it or not... that grade goes into my overall score.

 

Fuller’s ESB is a trademarked brand in the U.K. There many Strong Bitters, ones I have had are Gales HSB, Young’s Special, and so on.

Check the BJCP guidelines. Comment section for 11c Strong Bitter.

 

As far as I know, the brewer does not claim that it's a Schwarzbier. Personally, I think this has more to do with the approach of the reviewer than if the beer is miscategorized here (because it's not like there's a perfect category for every beer). It's not that "reviewing to style is dumb" (and I realize you're having a little fun with that), but rather, it's not good to judge a beer poorly against a style criteria if it was never designed to be associated with that style. I think the reviewer needs to automatically be skeptical about the style a beer is listed under here, but the approach is all too often the opposite ("beer A is a porter and beer B is a saison, and this is a fact."). When I say "skeptical," I'm not saying that beers are categorized incorrectly, I'm saying that people should not tether so strictly.

 

Different ways to interpret that:
1) This beer is trying to be an Oktoberfest with New Zealand hops, I should judge it for what the brewer was aiming for rather than what I think an Oktoberfest should be.
2) This beer is trying to be an Oktoberfest, but it's dominated by New Zealand hops. Although I love drinking the results, it just doesn't feel like an Oktoberfest.

 

I get what you're saying. You're saying "style is dumb" ... and you'd have hated my genre theory-based papers in college.

The approach you suggest is close to how I review. I definitely do not accept BA.com's listed style as biblical. If I did, I'd have scored Xingu about a 2.0 instead of the 4.0 I gave it.

Without some kind of reference point to start from, I'm not sure why I'd do a review -- I struggle with them as is. But I'll be even more skeptical of style designations.

 

I love "style" and I would have enjoyed your papers.

 

I'd pay a lot of money for some pints of Young's Special. Man, do I miss that beer.

 

The classification on this website is reflective of American style guidelines, not so much of how things are in the old countries. The idea of ESB as a style was formulated entirely off the back of Fuller's ESB. A stab in the dark but I'm guessing it was for opening a new category in beer brewing competitions. Fuller's ESB is really just a strong ale and nothing out of the ordinary in that respect. Really comes alive on cask if well looked after. Styles in the UK, or I should say sub syles, are mirky at best and it could just as easily be marketed as an IPA. Bombardier is just an ordinary bitter/pale ale, and an absolutely awful one at that.

 

Bombardier when on song is a cracking good pint.
Yes,ESB was just a name thought up to put on the label.Extra Special Bitter. How is that a style any more than Best Bitter or just Special as in Young's Special.
To illustrate the problems in tying down styles, in hopping,strength and colour Fuller's. ESB would have been a Mild before WW1.

 

But that is indeed a significant part of a multi-part problem. Sometimes they are categorized incorrectly. Very few if any Taxonomies capture entirely the portion of the world they are designed to deal with but since this site allows any of us to add a beer, miscategorization by the person entering the beer can also contribute to the problem.

I often hear folks complaining about how a beer doesn't fit the category it is listed under but don't hear about many of them taking a similar amount of time to check the accuracy of the listing in the first place. They just accept it and blame the taxonomy. But even the best taxonomy will fall short of it's goals if folks are commiting errors in placing items into categories and nobody takes the time to correct those errors.

However, I'd suggest the particular beer that @Primo88 has been discussing is actually an example of the taxonomy failing to provide a meaningful category called "Exceptions" or "Doesn't fit any established category," if we accept the brewery's account of the origin of the beer. The person doing the entry back in '01 was confronted with a problem. The beer must fit into a category to be entered into the database. It's called a black beer by the brewer. In German Schwartzbier means a black beer, so the beer is a black beer and can be added to the Schwartzbier category. (Putting aside for the moment the possibility that the taxonomy itself has changed since '01.)

So my point is that sometimes the problem arises with the person doing the entry, sometimes, as you suggest, the problem arises from the taxonomy itself. There's not much we can do to change the taxonomy so we just have to accept it or leave it, but there are things we can do about erroneous entries.

 

Yeah, it has been awhile since I had the pints of Young’s Special. Old Nick was great too.

 

@Premo88

 

Adding to the confusion is the fact that a number of Czech dark lagers are listed as schwartzbiers here on BA, while others are in the catch-all category.

 

I'm not talking about what they are listed under on this site. They are UK made beers with ESB in the name.

 

Then that just leaves Fuller's ESB.

 

Ladies and gentlemen! ESB style doesn't exist...according to a couple of guys from UK.