IPA/NEIPA off flavors

Thanks for the link. Seen the study referenced many times but never read the whole thing. It’s interesting but also seems to bring in a lot of variables... number of breweries, different yeasts, different malts, and water profiles all over the map (how about the beer with 1200ppm SO4!!!) different bottling lines, etc, etc, etc. The significant increase in “grassy” flavor with Long post boil residence is a bit of a concern. Not to mentioned they grouped grassy and piney together and then there’s a generic “hop flavor” category?? For me that study creates just as many potential questions as it did provide answers.

 

The result that I find relevant in the Rock Bottom study is that both hop flavor and hop aroma increases with increasing kettle residence time.

Cheers!

 

Yup, we all have our unique palate.

On a number of occasions I have consumed commercial IPAs (draft pints) that had an aroma that was reminiscent to me of a petroleum product (diesel?). I would have my wife taste these beers and ask if she was perceiving this diesel-like aroma/flavor. Sometimes she would respond that she did and other times she would say no. For some reason I am sensitive to this diesel-like aroma/flavor and needless to say I am not a fan. One of the beers where I have a better than 50/50 chance of this happening is Fat Head's Head Hunter IPA. In the July/August 2016 issue of Zymurgy there was a clone recipe for Head Hunter and I learned that this beer has a fair bit of Columbus used at the end of boil and for dry hopping. My guess is that when Fat Heads receives some particularly pungent Columbus hops that I am picking this up in the beer and my palate 'registers' this as diesel-like.

FWIW I have brewed a fair bit with Simcoe in brewing 'regular' IPAs including several batches that solely featured Simcoe for late kettle hopping (including end of boil/hop-stand) and dry hopping. All of those beers were enjoyable for me but I did not use outrageous amounts of Simcoe. Needless to say but not all Simcoe hops crops are equivalent. For example last fall I brewed a Simcoe/Amarillo IPA and while I typically pick up pine aroma/flavor from Simcoe in that batch I picked up zero pine.

Cheers!

 

Nelson and Riwaka are two hops that are incredibly machine oil / diesel forward to me. I have yet to get that from an American Hop. Some Mosaic/Citra/Columbus can have this earthy quality to them that could come off as diesel I guess but it’s way different than the NZ varieties. The 2017 CTZ I got from Yakima Valley is straight onion/garlic, it’s weird. I’ve never smelt CTZ like that... it’s like they packaged some crappy Summit and put a CTZ sticker on it.

 

One more example of the ‘challenges’ of hops and brewing.

The ‘quality’ of hops is dependent on so many variables:

· Where the hops were grown (specific hop farm and even specific location of that hop farm)?

· The crop year

· When were the hops harvested (i.e., early harvest vs. late harvest)?

· How were the hops processed?

· How were the hops stored after processing (up to the point of purchase)?

· Etc.

Add in the additional factor that we homebrewers have little choice in this matter. I buy whatever is available to me via my LHBS or online vendors.

A commercial brewer can get into a hop contract and thereby stipulate things. For example Vinnie Cilurzo has for years had a hop contract with Perrault Hop Farm and he can request hops from a specific location (e.g., Row 2, Hill 56).

I have read where some commercial brewers when they receive a hop shipment and it is ‘off’ from their perspective (e.g., smells too oniony) they send it back and request differing product.

Cheers!

 

Jack, hill 2 row 56 is a reference and homage to the single plant that was selected to propagate Simcoe. In a field of experimental hops they might have one of each new variety. That was the one!

Jason Perrault said the experimental field has moved a couple of times.

Perrault farms is part of YCH (actually one of the farms that own YCH) and as I understand it all of the hops are processed through YCH. The farms don’t direct sell hops, but a brewer can select from lots at the farms, and get those selections from YCH.

 

Yup, I was simply using that reference as an example of specific location on a hop farm.

Yup.

Cheers!

 

That location was a single plant. Enough for a homebrew, about 2 lbs tops, not enough for batches of beer. That was my point.

To see what a hop brings to the party, the hop brokers and farms have homebrew systems. There are several More Beer 20 gallon systems used for that.

Brewers will select from lots. Lot numbers now appear on the commercial and homebrew packages. Those lots can be traced back to the field.

A fun fact - Perrault farms has >1200 acres of hops, so they need to spend some effort on traceability.

 

I hopstand my NEIPAs with 16ozs at 180 degrees for 30 minutes.... Usually ends about 160-170 degrees depending on outside temp and I have never experienced the off flavors you are describing nor has anyone ever said anything like that. I also use distilled water with chloride ratio of 200ppm and sulfate at 100ppm. I use London 1318( on 5th generation now and keeps getting better!) and ferment at 68d degrees and beer is usually at terminal gravity in 4 to 5 days. Well over 20+ people have had my NEIPAs and even some local breweries and everyone has given me great feedback and reviews. Which leads me to believe the off flavor is coming from something else. Sucks you threw those hops out because it would have been nice to use them for the experiment. Good luck in finding your concern. Please keep us updated on your findings. Cheers!!!

 

You do 16oz for 5 gallons?

 

I use that amount for 5 - 6 gallon batches, with a 6 oz. dry hop. No hops during the boil, though.

 

Sorry about the confusion. My DIPAs get a 16 oz. 180F addition along with two 3 oz. dry hops, so a total of 22 oz.

 

I use the same amount of quantity (usually around 18-24oz for IPA's) but never went that heavy on the whirlpool addition... Usually do around 10oz of dry hopping instead, about 3-4oz whirlpool and the rest in the boil.

Have you done both? What was your experience in both, if so?

Perhaps on my next one, I will bias more toward the whirlpool this time around and see how it turns out.

 

Yes, I use 16oz for hop stand for 6 gallon batch and will do a 4oz dry hop during high krausen and sometimes do a second dry hop of another 4oz.

 

Sound like it could just be your palate may have changed some and you are sensitive to something in the simcoe. I know I never used to be sensitive to the onion/garlic from citra and mosaic, but this past year its gotten really bad for me and I can smell/taste even the faintest amount of it if those hops are in beers and my friends tell me I'm crazy that they don't pick it up at all lol

 

I have not done both, but @TooHopTooHandle has. Maybe he can chime in as to the differences that he got.

 

I have done both and I find the higher whirlpool addition to be a much smoother bitterness and much juicier. The bitterness is still there but its much softer and doesn't linger as long. I found that doing the bigger and double dry hops seem to have a sharper bitterness. I don't get that hop burn any more for the first couple days after kegging, but everyone's palates are different so it might not be the same flavor/taste results for you.