Determining Tap Water Concentrations from Water Report

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by BoardwalkBock, Apr 10, 2018.

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  1. BoardwalkBock

    BoardwalkBock Pooh-Bah (2,041) Aug 18, 2012 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Hey guys,

    Wondering if you can help me clarify/confirm that I am reading my City's water quality report correctly in order to determine the concentrations of ions in the tap water I'm using for brewing. So far I have yet to focus on any aspect of my water chemistry, but I'm looking to expand the influence over my beers.

    The last water quality report published online is from 2016 - http://www.longbeachny.gov/vertical...016_Drinking_Water_Quality_Report_-_Final.pdf. I've seen the 2017 report at the library and the concentrations are almost identical.

    I've been reviewing Palmer's reference: http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/reading-a-water-report

    Now please bear with me as I have not used chemistry outside of my experiments with eutrophication (nitrogen, nitrogen sulfide) for quite a few years. Basically, mg/L should be 1:1 with ppm, but I know its not always the case depending on the atomic weight of an element/compound. I'm looking for help/confirmation on converting the concentrations of elements/compounds from mg/L to ppm.

    Based on my City's water quality report:

    Calcium - Max reading: 13.1 mg/L - Average reading: 7 mg/L
    Magnesium - Max reading: 1.3 mg/L ; Average reading: 1 mg/L
    Sodium - Max reading: 10.4 mg/L - Average reading: 5.2 mg/L
    Chloride - Max reading: 6.9 mg/L - Average reading: 3.45 mg/L
    Sulfate - Max reading: 201 mg/L - Average reading: 100.5 mg/L
    Bicarbonate - Did not find this reading; maybe I overlooked it? Not sure how to calculate this based on the water report.

    If I convert the readings above at a 1:1 ratio from mg/L to ppm, I observe the following:

    Calcium - Max: 13.1 ppm; Average: 7 ppm
    Magnesium - Max: 1.3 ppm; Average - 1 ppm
    Sodium - Max: 10.4 ppm; Average - 5.2 ppm
    Chloride - Max: 6.9 ppm; Average - 3.45 ppm
    Sulfate - Max: 201 ppm; Average - 100.5 ppm

    When compared the following concentrations found on the Palmer reference, some elements (Sodium, Chloride, Sulfate) fall within the listed range below. Others (Calcium, Magnesium) fall largely short of the range.

    Calcium - 50-150 ppm
    Magnesium - 10-30 ppm
    Sodium - 0-150 ppm
    Chloride - 0-250 ppm
    Sulfate - 50-150 ppm normal bitter beers; 150-350 ppm for very bitter beers
    Bicarbonate - Varies based on type of malts used in the grist

    Should I be multiplying the concentration of mg/L by the equivalent weight listed on the Palmer reference to get ppm? When I do this, I observe the following:

    Calcium - Max: 262 ppm; Average: 140 ppm (Equivalent weight 20.0)
    Magnesium - Max: 15.73 ppm; Average - 12.1 ppm (Equivalent weight 12.1)
    Sodium - Max: 238.16 ppm; Average - 119.08 ppm (Equivalent weight 22.9)
    Chloride - Max: 224.26 ppm; Average - 122.13 ppm (Equivalent weight 35.4)
    Sulfate - Max: 9648 ppm; Average - 4824 ppm (Equivalent weight 48.0)

    Obviously, some of the readings in ppm would be utterly extreme (Sulfate), so I am definitely leaning more towards the 1:1 conversion than calculating by multiplying by the equivalent weight.

    Either that or I am completely off-base and am doing the complete wrong calculations.

    All and any help will be appreciated! Thanks guys, cheers.
     
    #1 BoardwalkBock, Apr 10, 2018
  2. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    1 mg/l = 1 ppm is close enough for the kinds of concentrations found in brewing water.
     
    #2 VikeMan, Apr 10, 2018
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  3. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Ah metric system. Water chemistry can put you in the weeds real quick, but the wights and measures part is not a problem.

    The nice thing is that volume and weight are pretty much interchangeable in the metric system for our purposes...

    So, 1 liter of water (a volume) weighs 1 kilogram (a weight). 1 kg is 1,000 grams. Or 1,000,000 milligrams. Perfect. A millionth of a liter weighs 1 milligram. 1/1. ppm = mg/L .

    We are just determining ratios.

    So now we can use mg/l and ppm interchangeably.
    Which is quite nice, as you can easily weigh your salts in grams and add to your liters of water. Need to add salts to 5 liters? Multiply your required grams by 5. And so on.

    Which is a lot of words to state what @VikeMan made clear already.
    Cheers.
     
    #3 billandsuz, Apr 10, 2018
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  4. frozyn

    frozyn Maven (1,435) May 16, 2015 New York
    Trader

    What they said, plus you'll want to consider getting your water tested by Ward Labs. Tests W-5 or W-5A work (W6 too, if you don't care about your iron levels). With the huge range the city listed in terms of sulfates, you'd do yourself a disservice by not knowing exactly what's coming out of your own tap. You can go with the city numbers for a bit, but if you really want to dial in your water treatment, getting it lab tested is necessary.
     
    #4 frozyn, Apr 10, 2018
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  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    You will need Alkalinity as well from your water provider.

    I requested (I called them up) a Lab Report from my local water supplier (Aqua) and on that report the Alkalinity was listed.

    You might have already the information I linked below but just in case:

    https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/

    Cheers!
     
    #5 JackHorzempa, Apr 10, 2018
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  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    The values will vary over the year (seasons). Not a whole lot you can do about this unless you are willing to periodically (quarterly) get your water tested (e.g., Ward Labs).

    Maybe you could bug your locally water supplier every few months to obtain the values for that time period?

    Cheers!
     
    #6 JackHorzempa, Apr 10, 2018
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  7. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Yes, the utility can change sources depending on the season and demand. Reservoir water is going to be different than groundwater. There is not much you can do about this.

    Secondary compounds, taste molecules, those are not going to be tested very frequently which is why you'll get a range. The utility is concerned about health issues, not brewing salts after all.
    Cheers.
     
    #7 billandsuz, Apr 11, 2018
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  8. BoardwalkBock

    BoardwalkBock Pooh-Bah (2,041) Aug 18, 2012 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Perfect. That is what I was hoping for.

    Yea that's especially true in the area I live, considering we get our water from a deep aquifer and seasonal changes in the aquifer can alter the % composition of elements/compounds found in the water.

    Especially here. Our water infrastructure is 80+ years old and is unfortunately failing. We have a ton of iron in our water that is a result of pipe corrosion and "hydrant flushing". It is not uncommon to get brown water out of our faucets in the morning when the pipes have been dormant for a few hours. The residents are at the city council meeting every month yelling about the brown water (iron) so their main concern is making sure the water is clean and healthy to drink.

    I will reach out to the City to request the Alkalinity.
     
    #8 BoardwalkBock, Apr 11, 2018
  9. BoardwalkBock

    BoardwalkBock Pooh-Bah (2,041) Aug 18, 2012 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Forgot to include this above:

    Would you guys agree that the water composition should be considered as "hard". My calculations show (based on the max concentration of Ca) that the max Ca concentration in a 5 gallon batch of beer would be 247.94 ppm (13.1 ppm x 18.9271 Liters (5 gallons)).

    This reading is well above the concentrations listed on Palmer's reference (50-150 ppm). Would my best bet to lower the concentration of Ca would be to use distilled water for my batches of beer at a ratio of 1:1 to tap water?
     
    #9 BoardwalkBock, Apr 11, 2018
  10. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Under these circumstances, I'd recommend looking into building your own brewing water from RO or Distilled water. You'd have full control over your recipes' water, and wouldn't be subject to variability or iron/rust.
     
    #10 VikeMan, Apr 11, 2018
  11. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Just about ALL of our water infrastructure is dated and in need of repair.

    You can easily "get the brown out" if you use a simple pleated filter. I suggest a 20 micron pleated paper cartridge filter in a standard housing. That will filter a lot of solids for brewing but it depends on how much junk is in the source. Either way, maybe $25 in parts. If you want the whole house supply to be clear maybe $200 in filters and then the maintenance, PITA.

    Dissolved iron removal is a lot more difficult. The easy and logical step is to add a softener. But softened water is not good for brewing. So if you are serious about water treatment Reverse Osmosis is your only practical option.

    But water treatment will bring your beer to an entirely new level.
    Cheers.
     
    #11 billandsuz, Apr 11, 2018
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  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I re-read your online water report and it lists a wide variation for Iron: N.D. – 0.23 mg/l.

    I did a quick web search and noted that A.J. Delange posted in another homebrewing forum: “For brewing you want 0.1 mg/l or less.”

    So, it does appear that at times the iron level of your municipal water is problematic. Unless you take the step to test your water for the iron level maybe you need an alternate source of water (e.g., RO water)?

    Cheers!
     
    #12 JackHorzempa, Apr 11, 2018
  13. BoardwalkBock

    BoardwalkBock Pooh-Bah (2,041) Aug 18, 2012 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    I just calculated the composition (low, mean, high) of Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, Chloride and Sulfate below based on a calculation of xx ppm x 18.9271 Liters for a standard 5 gallon batch:

    Calcium Low: 17.03 Mean: 132.49 High: 247.95
    Magneisum Low: 13.25 Mean: 18.93 High: 24.61
    Sodium Low: 0 Mean: 98.42 High: 196.84
    Chloride Low: 0 Mean: 62.30 High: 130.60
    Sulfate Low: 0 Mean: 1902.17 High: 3804.35

    The sulfate levels are extremely alarming!
     
    #13 BoardwalkBock, Apr 11, 2018
  14. BoardwalkBock

    BoardwalkBock Pooh-Bah (2,041) Aug 18, 2012 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    I'm definitely starting to lean towards this as the iron issue is not linear and can pop up at anytime. Also, the sulfate levels are extremely high.

    Yes. I was trying to avoid using RO or Distilled water for economic purposes, but I'd rather my beer taste better and know what was going into it than continue to "guess" and play it by ear.

    This thread has been extremely helpful. Thanks guys!
     
    #14 BoardwalkBock, Apr 11, 2018
  15. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    I'll throw this in, what the hell...

    If you have an iron problem, you typically have a manganese problem as well. This is a common groundwater issue though I am not familiar with West Coast water. At all. Still, iron and manganese go hand in hand and it does not depend on the waters citizenship.

    So ask for manganese concentrations. Not the same as magnesium. If you do have significant manganese ions you are getting yourself an RO filter or using purchased RO water to cut your municipal supply.

    For reference, there is no amount of iron that is helpful in brewing. But iron is ubiquitous and can be ignored if the levels are low enough. My Artesian wells provide water nearly identical to Thames Valley supply, except for the iron. It is a real struggle.

    Cheers.
     
    #15 billandsuz, Apr 11, 2018
  16. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    While 201 ppm of SO4 is certainly higher than I would want in most beers, I'm puzzled as to why you would be computing a total mass per batch. I mean, the numbers would look twice as alarming for a 10 gallon batch as for 5, but the beer would taste the same.
     
    #16 VikeMan, Apr 11, 2018
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  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    An option that might save you some money is to 'blend' your tap water with RO water. Maybe a 50/50 mix could work for you? You will likely still need to add some mineral salts to get those minerals that are low (Calcium, Chloride,...) up.

    Cheers!
     
    #17 JackHorzempa, Apr 11, 2018
  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Do you have a max value that you use for manganese in brewing water?

    Cheers!
     
    #18 JackHorzempa, Apr 11, 2018
  19. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    No, I don't. We would need to consult with the texts but I think we can safely assume that like iron, no amount of manganese is helpful or desirable.
    Cheers.
     
    #19 billandsuz, Apr 11, 2018
  20. BoardwalkBock

    BoardwalkBock Pooh-Bah (2,041) Aug 18, 2012 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Just to clarify, the City is Long Beach, NY, not Cali. It gets confused a lot, even from people on Long Island who have no idea Long Beach exists. So you are probably a little more familiar with the type of water.

    I will find out the manganese concentrations as well.
     
    #20 BoardwalkBock, Apr 11, 2018
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