Thought Experiment: Enhancing Malt Flavor

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by OldBrewer, Apr 12, 2018.

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  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    There are many opinions on this. I prefer to mash out with all of the remaining water, then lauter everything at once, i.e. a "no-sparge" technique. I'm convinced I get richer/cleaner malt flavor this way. You are correct that with no-sparge, mash efficiency will (all other things being equal) suffer compared to a sparge. There's no getting around the fact that, with no-sparge, the wort left behind in the mash tun has a higher gravity than the wort left behind after sparging. Thus less sugars/dextrins are reaching the kettle. For me though, it's an easy tradeoff. I'm not brewing for a living. It's my hobby, so I'm willing to spend the money for a little more malt to make what I believe is a better beer.
     
  2. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Thanks, VikeMan. I have been concerned about this for a long time, and have read many opinions on the issue. If it produces better beer in terms of malt flavor, then I'm all for it. I have never been able to quite get that clean malt flavor that I enjoy, and if this gets me closer, I'm willing to try it in the next brew. A little extra grain to account for the difference in efficiency should not be too costly. Do you have a ball-park estimate of about how much more grain (percentage) I should add as a starting point in my next brew?
     
  3. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Sure. If you can tell me the following from one of your recipes...
    - Batch Size (gallons into fermenter)
    - Lbs of Grain
    - Batch Sparge Mash Efficiency
    - Strike Water to Grain Ratio (quarts per pound)
    ....I can give you a rough estimate of the change in mash efficiency you'd get by moving to no-sparge, based on what would happen in my brewhouse.

    Additionally, if you can provide any/all of the following...
    - Mash Tun Dead Space (gallons)
    - Boil Off (gallons per hour)
    - Grain Absorption Loss (gallons per pound)
    - Hop Trub Loss (gallons per ounce)
    - Ounces of hops used in the above recipe
    ...the estimate would get incrementally better.
     
  4. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Thanks!
    Batch Size (gallons into fermenter): 5.1
    Lbs of Grain: 10.1
    Extract Efficiency: 70%
    Strike Water to Grain Ratio: 1.5
    Mash tun dead space: .25 Gal.
    Boil off: 15%/hr
    Grain Absorption: .09 gal./lb
    Hop Trub loss: .46 gal
    Ounces hops used: 1.4
     
  5. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Do you know what that is in gallons per hour?

    Are you sure about that hop trub loss? It sounds very high for 1.4 ounces of hops. Maybe 0.046 gallons?
     
  6. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Yes, it was .46 gallons - that included wort along with the trub. 1.75 liters.
     
  7. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Is that kettle trub or the trub after fermentation?
    Also, still need boiloff in gallons/hour (or the total water used for the recipe and I could figure it out from there).
     
  8. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Sorry for the late response - I was out all afternoon. That is the kettle trub only (also includes any hot break, etc., although I scoop most of it off after it begins to boil).

    I'll figure out the boil off-rate and provide it shortly.
     
  9. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    The actual boil-off rate for my last brew was 1.32 gallons per hour. I had to calculate it in imperial units as I record everything in metric units.
     
  10. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    I better check the extraction efficiency that I provided. I might have provided brewhouse efficiency rather than mash efficiency.
     
  11. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    You will have a much more "malty" product by simply limiting your boil off rate to 6-8%. Using a partially covered lid, it allows you to tone down the boil intensity, less intensity=less thermal stress. Less thermal stress=less TBI. Less TBI=better fresher wort.
     
  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Conducting a robust boil has a number of benefits in brewing.

    Dr. Charlie Bamforth discusses this in a Beersmith podcast (see below).

    As Brad Smith summarized it: “He explains why the boil is so important to brewing beer and the six major reasons why a good robust boil is critical for beer.”

    Cheers

     
  13. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    I didn't record the SG of the pre-boil volume, but working back from the post-boil volume (I didn't add any more fermentables to the boil), my mash efficiency was likely about 72.1%.
     
  14. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Ironically, I did try to reduce the intensity of the boil, and I almost always do boil with a lid partially on. I boil in the garage with the garage door open, and it was quite humid, cold and windy that day (at freezing point). I think the wind influenced the evaporation rate. An unusually thick layer of steam arched out of the kettle directly outside, and it was almost impossible to see the surface of the wort. I used a flashlight and could see that it was not boiling too hard. The evaporation rate ended up about the same as when I brewed before, even though the intensity of the boil was reduced.I can reduce it even more next time.
     
  15. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Given all the numbers you provided, I'd expect your mash efficiency to decrease from 72.1% to ~66.1% if you switch to no-sparge.
     
  16. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Excellent! Thank you! I'll use that efficiency in my next brew as a starting point, and adjust later.
     
  17. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    For an efficiency of 66.1% rather than 72.1%, I would only need another 0.6 lb of grain. That's much less than $1.00 of extra grain - a very inexpensive way of making a much better beer.
     
  18. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    As an update, my Paulaner Premium Pils clone/taste-alike (not sure because I've never been able to find a Paulaner Premium Pils to try out) has not yet even lagered, because I need the keezer to maintain fermentation temperatures for a subsequent Paulaner Premium Pils brew (some changes). Thus it's basically remained at about 45-46 F following the diacetyl rest. But I cheated and just gave it a try. I'm excited to say that it is already by FAR the best pilsner I've made to date! It's already very clear and is also the most malt forward and best pilsner I've yet made!

    Thus, anecdotally at least, I think that

    1) adding a liter taken from the boil (before hops) and adding it later after the boil;
    2) using some of the low oxygen procedures;

    Makes a very noticeable difference to the resulting beer (thanks @the Brewery for your low oxygen suggestions!)

    I will provide a further update once the pilsner has lagered for some time. I'll also compare it to the subsequent Paulaner Premium Pilsner clone/taste-alike that is currently stlll fermenting. I used low-oxygen procedures but this time did not add a litter of wort taken during the boil but before adding hops. I also used a no-sparge method.

    For sure, this will definitely be my go-to recipe for Pilsners from now on!
     
    dmtaylor and Soneast like this.
  19. Soneast

    Soneast Pooh-Bah (1,751) May 9, 2008 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Very encouraging! Not sure if I missed it in this thread, but care to share the recipe?
     
  20. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Nobody asked, so I didn't provide it before, but here it is:

    Paulaner Premium Pilsner (5 U.S. Gallons)

    Original Gravity: 1.048
    Final Gravity: 1.009
    IBU: 28
    SRM 3.2
    Alcohol (by volume) 5.1%

    Volume

    Yield (kegging volume): 18.1 liters (4.8 US Gallons)
    Pre-boil volume: 28.2 liters (7.4 US Gallons)
    Post-boil volume: 20.8 liters (5.5 US Gallons)
    Ferment volume: 19.3 liters (5.1 US Gallons)

    Grain

    German Pilsner malt: 3.77 kg. (8.31 lb)
    Munich Malt Light 0.45 kg. (1.00 lb)
    Carafoam: 0.23 KG. (0.5 lb or 8.0 oz)
    Aciduated malt: 0.11 kg. (0.25 lb or 4.0 oz)

    Total amount of grain: 4.56 kg. (10.06 lb)

    Hops and Other Ingredients

    Magnum: 11.3 gm (bittering hop @ 13.5% AA – last 50 min.)
    Halertau Tradition: 14.2 gm (flavour hop @ 5.5% AA – last 20 min.)
    Spalt: 14.2 gm (flavour hop @ 3.0% AA – last 15 min.)

    Irish moss: 2 tsp. (last 15 min.)

    WLP830 (or Wyeast 2124)

    Mash and Fermentation

    Mash at 65.0 C (149 F) for 90 minutes. (Note my mash ended up at about 146 F)
    Cool to 7.2 C (45 F), add yeast, let rise and ferment at 9.4 C (49.0 F) 3-4 weeks.
    Do diacetyl rest at 15.6 C (60.0 F) for 2-3 days.
    Then drop 3.0 F per day and finish ferment at 9.4 C (49.0 F).
    Lager at 0.6 C (33 F) for at least 3 weeks.
     
    Soneast likes this.
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