When is a ‘beer flaw’...not a flaw?

Are you referring to beer style guidelines here (e.g. BJCP beer style guideline, Brewers Association beer style guideline,...) or is there some other 'documentation' you are referencing here?

Can you provide a link(s)?

Cheers!

 

Agreed. And I like the music analogy. Beer and music both have similar interweavings of society, history, styles, sub-cultures, geographical influences, market forces, opinions of experts/authorities vs general public, etc.

 

Yes.. that's another way to say it I think.

Or the definition must be bounded in some manner, either explicitly or implicitly understood - we probably trip over the latter often.

 

And that ties in perfectly with what I was saying about intent. The style of music is only one way of looking at it; but if there's a uniquely missed beat, wrong chord or note, etc., then it's a flawed performance.

 

But what if there are “off beats” (i.e., syncopation)? Is that a flaw?

Cheers!

 

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. If that's their thing, and they do it all the time, then that's their style. That's why I put the word 'uniquely' in there; it's relative to whomever you're considering.

 

But sometimes that slope comes to define a new norm doesn't it?

The example that comes to mind for me is distorted guitar. The sound that came to basically define rock guitar was initially achieved by specifically using an amplifier in a way it was not intended to be used (and/or it was intentionally broken in a particular way).

Not everyone enjoys the sound of rock guitar I'm sure, but at this point I don't think anyone would categorize it as a 'flawed' sound.

 

So, to bring the discussion back to beer: since in Rolling Rock there is perceptible DMS, "they do it all the time". So DMS in Rolling Rock is not a flaw?

Cheers!

 

Not at all, and that's what I've been getting at. Nor do I consider the diacetyl in Samuel Smith's beers a flaw.

However, I'm not willing to go all the way and say there are no such things as flaws either, and I gave my qualifications above in post 59.

 

Although perceptible levels of DMS or diacetyl are always flaws, at low levels they are at times acceptable flaws and in some beers those acceptable flaws are expected.

Would you agree with that phraseology?

 

BJCP, sure. They’ve been around for over 30 years so I’d say they get some say in the matter.
This site too, which is slightly differen, no?
CAMRA maintains styles and their ranking system has a 1 out of 5 option for flawed beer.
Siebel teaches classes on beer faults and provides ‘off-flavor’ kits.
You’d need you JSTOR to access it, but you know Bamforth and his crew teach it at UC Davis.
Styles and faults are in Kunze and all the textbooks...

I don’t think I’m telling you anything you don’t already know, Jack.


http://www.camra.org.uk/en_US/different-styles
https://www.siebelinstitute.com/products/sensorykits

 

3-MBT in DuPont Saison (green)

 

The first Redhook beer, Redhook Ale, used a Belgian yeast and was known as "Banana beer." Redhook has reincarnated that beer over the years for limited release, but ESB or other beers of theirs never had that character that I can remember.

 

Perhaps, but I appreciate your input here.

I am just 'circling back' to something I asked about is post #6:

"Who (or what 'authority') gets to define what is a flaw in a beer? Is it the folks of the BJCP? Is there an equivalent of BJCP for the beer industry?"

FWIW I am still not completely certain "who" gets to define what a fault is. As a homebrewer I do have a sense of appreciation for the BJCP but I am not completely certain that they get to be the "authority" as regards to defining what a beer flaw is for the entire beer industry/culture.

I do not own the Kunze textbook (or other similar textbooks). The majority of my beer brewing library is centered on homebrewing (e.g., Papazian books, Al Korzonas, Brewing Classic Styles by Palmer & Zainasheff, etc.).

Cheers!

 

Ah! It’s a political query. Where does authority come from? Man? Majority? The elite? The educated? God?

As a homebrewer, I’m sure you run into the ‘authorities’. The AHA uses the BJCP guidelines I believe. I know Jamil does. And I’m certain Complete Joys and How to Brew have segments on beer flaws.

 

From what I've gathered, Corona drinkers have mostly rejected the canning of their beloved product.
Larga vida a la falla!!

 

Nobody has mentioned the Burton Snatch,the strong sulphury taste which took some people unawares but was highly appreciated by aficionados.

 

I find isoamyl acetate at pretty high levels with Coors Banquet.

 

Confusion was created in Sensory training classes that I took back 15 years ago. I won't throw anybody under the proverbial bus but I remember hearing that at several of them. A close friend that is a former ABI employee confirmed that it is actually ethyl-hexanoate. More recently, sensory trainings have acknowledged that is the far more common culprit in apple character in beer. Acetaldehyde can come across as green apple but we see it a lot more as a gourd-like characteristic.