Barrel Fermented vs Barrel Aged

How is that risk mitigated? I understand fermented beers have lower pH, and higher alcohol that reduce the risks of infection. I also understand there are less fermentables in a finished beer, (minus the idea that pedio, lacto, pof+ sacc and Brett all metabolize compounds sacc can not) making the chance of infection less probable. With fresh wort was it a crap shoot? Were barrels treated somehow? It sounds scary from a brewer's perspective.

 

This past weekend I had a beer that was fermented in a barrel at La Cabra Brewing:

"Agnes Jane 5.0%
Peach, pear, pepper. This light yet flavorful beer carries on the tradition of our barrel-fermented Saisons".

I have no idea what sort of barrel they used (a wine barrel?) for this beer.

I can report that this beer was not "flavorful" to my palate, it was mostly bland. The 'good news' is that there were no off-flavors in this beer - it was not infected.

I will not be drinking this beer ever again. If I had to assign a letter grade to it I would generously give it a C-.

I have no idea whether this sub-par beer is a result of being fermented in a barrel or some other reason.

Cheers!

 

What did you expect from a beer named "Agnes Jane"? Sounds like the name of a cranky old nun to me! The worst part is I'm making this joke and it's probably named after the brewer's daughter.

 

For most brewers, I wouldn’t recommend trying. It is difficult to maintain. We fill barrels with boiling water for rinsing and then steam them. I always use highly active yeast at high Krausen from the propagation and then keep the barrels in a separate facility that’s air conditioned and away from traffic or other work going on.

 

And I would be willing to bet she carried a big ass ruler (with a metal edge no less)!

Cheers!

 

Aren't the fermented ones in the barrels longer? I like both "styles" but that is better.

 

What the heck is the point of that? How does it significantly reduce infection chances? Not being sarcastic, I'm truly interested.

 

Barrels can go funky with time. Some brewers like Vinnie Curluzo say that Brett lives in the wood. Brett can eat the cellobiose in the wood and survive.
https://docs.google.com/presentatio...Jgn9PB5TnAwXSbw5uTE/mobilepresent?slide=id.i0

Brynildson said they do this at another presentation. They also are after oak character as they blend union beer into base beers, so new barrels keep the oak flavor consistent.

 

That's an excellent read, thanks! It really didn't address my question though...assuming you were responding to it.

 

Wood is porous like a sponge, and permeable to oxygen. Over time outside microflora can permeate the wood, and propagate in it as well. The longer a barrel is used, the higher the chances it could infect a clean beer. This is a readers digest version, but hits the points.

 

I was hoping someone would bring this up. Its a good point because we know that during barrel aging water is lost. Therefore water molecules sneak out that porous wood.

However, bacteria is magnitudes larger than a water molecule. Depending on the strain, its on the order of thousands to hundreds of thousands times larger. Can bacteria that large sneak in a wooden barrel?

While I don't believe they can, I'm not sure we really know the answer yet. I'm hoping there is some evidence to suggest they can or can not. It would, at least in this case, help explain FW's strategy of minimizing the number of barrels that come into contact with one another.

 

If bacteria or yeast could only exist on the surface of the wood then the same sanitizer could be used on wood with the same results as stainless steel. Because wood is porous it allows yeast and bacteria to absorb into the wood, rendering regular sanitizing ineffective. While the wood may not be permeated by the bacterium or yeast, somehow these infections occur from foreign microflora that are living in the wood. I suppose an experiment with barrels and a marked souring bacteria could be performed. However it doesn't matter in the end, time allows these colonies to grow, and because controlling them in a barrel environment is difficult at best, older barrels will inevitably be a source of infection.

 

Vinnie has said they get a lot of barrels from wineries because they have gone to Brett. He uses them for his sours.

You should read Wild Brews by Sparrow, and American Sour Beers by Tonsemere.

Edit - when the Continental brewers would lager beer in wood kegs, those were lined with pitch to keep the beer from touching the wood to avoid contamination. The pitch would also reduce oxidation.

Edit 2 - wood pores are around 50 microns or more. Brett is around 5-7 microns.
https://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/brettanomyces-bruxellensis-microscopy-pictures/

 

From a mathematical standpoint it sounds like someone has calculated the risk of infection at 2.5 to 3.33 percent, thus removing the oldest barrel each year and replacing it with a new one keeps the odds in your favor. Just a guess.

 

The size is large enough for bacteria to get into in the pore, but I think the pores are not large enough to extend contamination completely through the wood. Given the 1/2 inch of oak in the barrel. However, when bacteria can thrive on the surface of any barrel, cross contamination probably comes too often and easily!

 

All the barrels were replaced in month time span. I was not clear on that.

 

Yes, bacteria of any size can "sneak" into the pores of a piece of wood. A bacteria is much larger than a molecule of water, but water doesn't escape the wood on a molecular level. The pores in the wood are very large compared to the size of a single-cell organism.

 

What about the space between staves? Or through bungs? There's so many ways for infection, look at how many companies fight it. Even AB InBev has gone through it. Any barrel program will inevitably succumb to infection on some level.

 

While this might be true of the producers that use this method, the VAST majority of the microbes in classic lambic fermentations do not come from the barrel. They come from the ambient.

 

Even though barrels do "breathe", you guys are forgetting that barrels with beer in them exhibit positive pressure. Yeast and bacteria from outside of a sealed barrel would be VERY unlikely to make their way inside it.

A well maintained barrel program can have very old barrels within it with no issues. It is the culling of individual barrels that aren't producing good product that is key to establishing consistency. Contamination, as you said, can happen from many things. The least of which is ambient microbes permeating a sealed barrel.