Lambic question - brewed without rice hulls (oops..)

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by vrbulldog22, Nov 5, 2012.

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  1. vrbulldog22

    vrbulldog22 Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Ohio

    We brewed 3 gallons of a lambic that was about half wheat, without really having any knowledge of rice hulls / their use / purpose... lesson learned. We separated the final wort into 3 separate 1 gallon batches (1 gallon glass carboys), each with a different fruit (raspberry, blackberry, blueberry), using harvested sour dregs (combined the bottom half inch or so from several sours into a yeast starter) to ferment. Now we have some funny looking carboys, and that's where the question comes in. The wheat clumps have all fallen to the bottom (takes up about half of each carboy), then there is a layer of normal looking wort (about 2-2 1/2 inches), then there is the wonderful looking fruit/pellicle layer (appx 1 1/2 inches). We've debated getting another 1 gallon container and combining the worts into that and just having one gallon of mixed fruit lambic going, but even if we leave it as-is, we're at the point where we want to add more fruit.

    Pic, couple weeks old:
    [​IMG]

    1) IF we go down the combining route- any tips on how to go about that process? How would we transfer the pellicle - could it be slightly broken up & poured into the new carboy / would the wheat clumps just stay at the bottom during the pouring process - or would we have to start over/ get a new pellicle if going down this route? Or should we just ram a siphon through the pellicle & go until the pellicle clogs it or..?

    2) IF we leave it as-is, and just do a couple more fruit additions (one every 3 months or so) over the period of time between now & next summer, should the fruit just land on top of the existing pellicle? or should the pellicle be slightly broken so that the fresh fruit makes contact with the wort? Is there any possible harm from the wort resting on the wheat clumps (similar to prolonged resting on a giant yeast cake)?

    Regardless, 3) What's the recommended process for bottling these babies? Just ram the siphon through the pellicle & siphon out until the pellicle clogs the siphon, or..?

    Thanks for the help!!
     
  2. yinzer

    yinzer Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2006 Pennsylvania

    You don't need rice hulls unless you are getting stuck sparges. Wheat clumps that take up 1/2 the carboy? Could you try to post the image again?
     
  3. vrbulldog22

    vrbulldog22 Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Ohio

    The pic is at http://imgur.com/AiPej
    It's really dark in his basement, and it's not a full carboy shot, but you can see the divisions.

    I forgot to mention it was an extract batch (after this batch we started doing BIAB, moving toward extract/cooler setup), so there was no sparge, but by the end of the boil it was getting extremely thick (almost applesauce like): this was also our first batch under 5 gallons so we just figured we didn't account for enough boil off, and added enough boiled water to take it back up to 3 gallons before transferring to the carboys & adding the yeast (after this water addition it resembled regular wort).
     
  4. messrock

    messrock Initiate (0) Dec 9, 2010 Massachusetts

    That's all trub, yeast and fruit that's settled out. If you used all extract there's no grain particulate matter in your wort at all. Absolutely no need for rice hulls in extract brews.
     
  5. vrbulldog22

    vrbulldog22 Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Ohio

    it just seems insane that there's so much..?! we've definitely never had anything anywhere near that amount, even with much larger grain bills.. (the fruit was dropped in whole, not pureed).

    so- leave alone or combine?
     
  6. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Like messrock said, rice hulls are only used with all grain batches (if needed). Their purpose is to prevent a stuck sparge, which can be caused by the extra guminess of ingredients like wheat malt and rye malt. Their guminess is increased by the fact that they lack the solid husk that barley malt has. So the rice hulls effectively serve the same purpose as husk material.
     
  7. vrbulldog22

    vrbulldog22 Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Ohio

    also - if its all only trub/ yeast - then explain how it turned to an applesauce consistency/ clumpiness level before the yeast ever touched the liquid? i dont think boiloff explains it all- we didnt boil it down to a syrup or scorch anything..
     
  8. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California

    You don't need yeast to produce trub. Trub is composed of both the cold and hot break from cooling and boiling the wort, respectively. After pitching the yeast, there will be yeast mixed in with your trub.

    Sometimes when making wheat beers, the wort will look like egg drop soup from all of the coagulated protein and break material.
     
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  9. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Did you do anything (like straining, or whirlpooling before racking) to keep the trub in the brew kettle from getting into the fermenter?
     
  10. vrbulldog22

    vrbulldog22 Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Ohio

    ran it through a strainer, or at least attempted to.



    to steer this back to the point of originally posting-
    any stabs at the actual questions i asked?
    combine (if yes, how)? leave alone?
    how to bottle?
     
  11. Hands22

    Hands22 Initiate (0) Oct 14, 2011 Florida

    Definitely a lot of trub, but I'd let them sit for a while (6+ months). Hopefully the trub will settle and compact as it ages and you will eventually be able to rack off it and bottle.
     
  12. yinzer

    yinzer Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2006 Pennsylvania

    I don't see a pellicle. How does this smell and taste?

    Since you put in into separate carboy's for a reason I'd leave it alone.
     
  13. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    surprised no one's asked you how long after pitching yeast that you racked to fruit.
     
  14. yinzer

    yinzer Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2006 Pennsylvania

    I read that it went from kettle to the three carboys/jugs. I wouldn't think that anyone would transfer all that trub.

    Looking at the pictures I wonder if the picture was taken a few days after racking or a few hours. I've never seen trub stay in such a suspended state for long.
     
  15. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    yeah...lots of questions going on in here.
    1. so much trub
    2. was it racked off of the kettle or poured from the kettle? may want to rapidly cool your trub, then give it a counterclockwise stir for 3-4 rotations, let it settle for 30 min, then rack into your carboys. that way, you leave the trub in your kettle and not brainin' in your carboys
    3. introduction of fruit - that happens 1 year after bugs chew through your lambic, not a day after racking to a carboy
    4. your yeast - read over what you did and still not sure. you made a true starter or you just combined some dregs and let them go to work. if its the latter, then you should do a real starter (1.030 - 1.040 wort with bugs added for 2-3 months BEFORE you're ready to brew. and I'd make 500 - 1000 L of starter simply because I'm not sure as to how viable the bugs were in your dregs)

    so what would i do with your, um, "situation"? if you really want to see where this will go (and, again, the presence of fruit is early, but I'd assume you would still get some sort of fermentation happening), then i would rack the wort from each carboy into a new carboy. you probably don't need to re-pitch yeast. that would clean up the trub grossness you have.

    you having any fermentation happening at all? if your bugs have sacch, there should be some sort of action (albeit mild) happening in the first few days. if your yeast count is incredibly low (which i fear it is), it may take weeks before you see anything. and when i say "weeks", i mean 2 - 12. and when i say "anything", again, i'm assuming that there's some active sacch in there AND its fermenting at a rate that would be active enough for some air lock activity

    just my 3 cents
     
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  16. vrbulldog22

    vrbulldog22 Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Ohio

    we poured from kettle, attempting to leave the worst behind, but didn't really work out.. ha.

    i guess this would be an 'oops'- we added whole fruit basically as soon as the kettle was empty.

    over the course of about a week/ week and a half, as we drank a dozen-ish sours, we sterilized the opening of each bottle, and poured the bottom half inch from each into a starter. some of them were only in there for about 24 hours before brewing (most were longer), but the airlock (on the starter) was going pretty strong at the time we added it. I think there was between 1/2 and 3/4 of a liter total when it was added.
    we brewed this back in July, so at this point there are no bubbles, but we did have them over the first couple weeks.

    thanks for all the input!
     
  17. vrbulldog22

    vrbulldog22 Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Ohio

    Pic was taken appx 4 *months* after.
    It wasn't chunky when we transferred it, adding additional boiled water to take it back up to 3 gallons (fixing boil off) seemed to turn it back to normal, brut it sorted back out on its own.
     
  18. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    so you should possibly have a viable starter. still would have given it a few more weeks so that your brett count could multiply sufficiently. also depends on the age of your consumed bottles,etc.

    so yeah, a few mistakes.
    are you screwed? no.
    will that be sitting forever, fermenting? possibly.
    i'd still rack to another carboy to get rid of that caacaa. who knows if its affecting the taste.
     
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  19. vrbulldog22

    vrbulldog22 Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Ohio

    thanks for the input!!
     
  20. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    bottom line:

    looks bad. you made mistakes. will still produce something. may not be tasty. may not be clear. will have to wait 12+ months for final product.

    4-5 months after you move it to the new carboy(s), take a taste. i assume you'll have enough yeast to continue the fermentation at the same pace. but see how it is. or give it the smell test.
     
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