Honey note in all homebrew

Well it all depends on how long fermenation has been over. The longer it’s been over the longer it will take for the yeast to wake up and eat. I would recommend that you hit is right as fermentation hits FG, that way you are protecting the beer in the fermenter. Once the yeast drops the beer is vulnerable for o2 intrusion.
If it’s going to be fast make a more dilute priming solution for better dispersion
Wait until you see some good activity. Then go to bottle.

 

We have ran many tests on the oxygen scavenging power of yeast. In 1 hour it will take water from 6-8ppm down to below 1. Here is an excerpt of said tests.

YOS test 1: (yos stands for yeast oxygen scavenging)
450ml RO water @27c in 500 ml erlenmeyer flask with stopper
0.02g MgSO4
0.05g CaCl
0.25g Dextrose
0.2g bread yeast, dry
Initial DO reading- about 6.5 mg/l
1 hour - 0.33mg/l
2 hours - 0.27mg/l
3 hours - 0.31mg/l
5 hours - 0.36 mg/l
17 hours - 0.47 mg/l

As you can see the DO levels start raising. This was when the yeast went dormant. If the theory that yeast antioxidant potential was ever lasting was true this o2 uptake would not have happened. Another thing to note is that is in a glass flask with a stopper, with amounts mimicking a bottle. The o2 intrusion is coming though the stopper much like a bottle cap.

Yay Science!

 

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/kDAplxpjQC/pentanedione/

 

Those caps are used when you want to transport beer. Where the cap screws on is where the airlock goes.

 

It is occurring to me that you do not fully understand how the presence of live yeast in beer, particularly via bottle conditioning, extends beer shelf-life.

I know that you have the book Practical Guide for Beer Quality – Freshness by Dr. Charlie W. Bamforth. In Table 7-1 he mentions that yeast in bottle conditioned beer affords protection via scavenging.

I would suggest that you watch Beersmith Podcast #74: Flavor Stability in Beer with Dr Charlie Bamforth. The entire podcast is educational – lots of good information in there. On the specifics of bottle conditioning Dr. Charlie Bamforth discussed that in bottle conditioned beer, the yeast provides protection.

There is also a Master Thesis out there that quantifies that beers that have been bottle conditioned (i.e., a secondary fermentation within the bottle) had the greatest antioxidant capacity as compared to beers force carbonated and beers force carbonated but with live yeast added to the package.

Needless to say there is more discussion and published literature on how bottle conditioning improves beer shelf-life.

The yeast in bottle conditioned beers do not stop being active at the end of a two week bottle conditioning period. They are active for many months.

Cheers!

P.S. There really is no call for a condescending attitude.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I am not disagreeing with you. I fully agree yeast is a fantastic oxygen scavenger. I literally published my tests post above that prove it. (You must have missed that)

"The yeast in bottle conditioned beers do not stop being active at the end of a two week bottle conditioning period. They are active for many months."

However you are completely wrong on the condition at which they are fantastic scavengers. Grab your DO meter and give the test a whirl. I bet you figure out what I am trying to explain to you. If yeast are out of food they go dormant. If they are dormant, they are not doing anything.. thats literally the definition of dormant.

If you force carb a beer that is at FG, the yeast will dormant immediately as there is no food for them....

You see where this is going.. right..

Priming sugar or bottle spunded beer, IS going to be the best bottled beer there is as is any beer that is packaged in its serving container before final gravity. I am agreeing with you and always have. However, its because there is yeast activity BEFORE the yeast go dormant. Once the Yeast go dormant they are not active, so.. we repeat the cycle.

 

Are you saying the rate of O2 intrusion through the stopper is like the rate through a bottle cap? Or are you being more qualitative on this point, i.e., they both happen.

 

Just had a14 year old Zoefzuur Flemish Ale with exquisite oxidation
I also have a couple of Baltic Porters under the house I hope will oxidize nicely.
It's a shame most pale lagers have to be drunk so quickly
Happy Labor Day

 

Nope, you are completely wrong here. There is test data that proves that yeast in bottle conditioned beers is live and viable at 5-6 (and likely more) months in the bottle.

I truly believe you have no idea what you are talking about on this topic.

 

Yeast can be alive for thousands of years. Doesn't mean they are active and consuming oxygen.

Bottled beer is not different than say a yeast slurry. Yeast can be alive and viable for a long time yet be dormant.

I truly believe you have no idea.. since you are posting all the resources yet interpreting them wrong.

AGAIN for the nteenth time. Dormant yeast will NOT consume oxygen. Dormant yeast may or may not be dead. Dormant yeast can still be alive and viable. Dormant means " having normal physical functions suspended or slowed down for a period of time; in or as if in a deep sleep." Dormant does not necessarily mean dead. Dormant in this case means fermentation has ceased.

If fermentation has ceased, yeast go dormant. Dormant yeast do not consume oxygen. Dormant doesn't mean dead.

Perhaps you should,ahem.. brush up on basic yeast cycles.

 

The both happen, quite quickly.

 

Those rates with stoppers are much higher than the ones (that I believe you?) cited here:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/bottle-cap-oxygen-ingress-real/

"Studies have shown"...
1500 ppb per 6 months <you are 1/3 of the way there in 17 hours>

Also, those oxygen barrier crowns seem pretty fantastic, 150 ppb in the same 6 months? Here you discuss a daily ingress of 7ppb.

 

I fairly sure this is the correct answer.

 

I’ve never used those individual bottle sugar tablets but assuming that’s what was used for bottling wouldn’t they contain oxygen that would dissolve into the beer. I would feel better about boiling the sugar water

 

Stopper material matter greatly, as does the actual seal of the stopper. Silicone is one of the most permeable out there, with butyl being the least ( thats why tires have it).

O2 caps are great for reducing, if you don't sanitize them...But if you don't sanitize them you run the risk of infection.

 

Ever wonder why export German beers are generally so oxidized while many other export beers seem perfectly fine? I imagine some breweries will brew in multiple breweries around the world and that most German beers are not dry hopped, but I think there might be other reasons also.

 

Oxygen barrier caps are mentioned earlier in this thread and at Bottle Cap Oxygen Ingress..Is It Real?.

There are at least two styles of caps that are intended to mitigate/abate effects of O2:
An Oxygen Barrier cap, according to one manufacturer, has "been manufactured specifically with a PVC free liner that has better qualities than a normal liner. The oxygen barrier liner is an upgraded liner that protects from external contamination such as odor and oxygen, which better preserves the taste and quality of the drink."
An Oxygen Scavenger cap, according to the same manufacturer; "Oxygen scavenger liners absorb oxygen that is in the bottle neck, decreasing the beer or beverage oxidation. Oxygen scavenger liners can provide extra freshness, great taste and extended shelf life."

I infer from the descriptions that the former is intended to provide a better physical seal than standard caps, and the latter has a liner impregnated/coated? with something that will absorb oxygen in the bottle headspace (doesn't speak to O2 in solution).
Although the manufacturer doesn't specifically state it, it seems reasonable to believe effectiveness of the Scavenger caps might be diminished with an application of a Starsan solution, but unlikely that the Barrier caps would be similarly affected.

Which cap style (Barrier or Scavenger) is referred to in Bottle Cap Oxygen Ingress..Is It Real?


On another note, perhaps someone can help with my struggle to reconcile the statement "It is certainly counter-intuitive at first that you can have gas flow in a reverse direction to the pressure gradient (e.g. the pressure inside the bottle is ~3 atm, while the pressure outside is ~1 atm), but it does."
I don't doubt the few mostly sensory and subjective measurements in the singular experiment.....but one experiment and a statement of "but it does" does not, in my mind, present overwhelming evidence.

Can the liner not make a good enough seal due to permeability or imperfect contact, thereby allowing microscopic pathways to form and allow oxygen to enter? If that's the case, how does oxygen overcome the "pressure gradient"?

I've been using the O2 scavenging caps almost exclusively. If the O2 barrier caps make a better seal, those seem to be the way to go; sanitize, install and let the yeast do their thing.
...waiting for "u need to keg"

 

The precursor for 2,3 pentanedione is secreted by the yeast, then oxidizes, and then can be reabsorbed by the yeast. This similar to the precursor of Diacetyl oxidizing outside of the yeast, turning it into Diacetyl which then can be reabsorbed.

If the level of either goes up with time in the bottle, the yeast are not taking up the O2 (assuming no bacterial infection).