A Dry Yeast Rehydration Experiment

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by pweis909, Jan 5, 2019.

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  1. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

  2. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Looking further at the book "Yeast" by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff, I found the following on page 138 (this applies to yeast starters which are allowed to go to high krausen, but there may be some applications of this to using rehydrated yeast):

    "If you are going to pitch a starter at high krausen, it is best to keep the starter within 5 to 10 degrees F (3 to 6 degrees C) of the wort temperature of the main batch. Pitching a very warm, active starter into cold wort can stun the cells, and with lager strains this can possibly affect attenuation, flocculation, and increase hydrogen sulfide production. While you can slowly cool the starter over time, it will often defeat the whole purpose of pitching at high krausen. Any time yeast sense a big drop in temperature, they slow down and drop out, so if you want to pitch at the height of activity, it is better to keep the starter closer to fermentation temperatures from the beginning."
     
  3. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I picked it up from the GotMead forum, although I may have found it elsewhere, too. Given his influence on meadmakers, it may have come from the Ken Schramm mead book, or from some conference talk or podcast somewhere. I am pretty sure I have come across Schramm advocating this. Regardless, I just accepted on faith that an experienced meadmaker (either the dude on the GotMead Forum, or Schramm) had a good sense for what is good practice.

    FWIW, after several failed attempts at writing a broad opinion piece about beer myths, dogma, and experimentation, I decided to omit most of it, because it sounded too preachy to me. I'll summarize by saying that we all brew a little differently and perceive our beers a little differently. The best we can do is adapt our brewing techniques to the feedback of those tasting our beers, filtered according to whose opinions matters most to each of us. For my brewing, my opinion is probably the most important. If am I am doing an experiment, it is so I can decide what works best for me. If someone aspires to win a Ninkasi award, be a professional brewer, or save their marriage*, they need to appease a different client.

    *In the argument preceding my divorce, my ex-wife said to me "And your beer actually sucks!" It was a low blow. Needless to say, there was no possible reconciliation.
    :wink:
     
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  4. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    In the past, I've also accepted far too much on what "experts" say, without questioning enough. Often when questioned deeply enough, these experts also often seem to rely on what they've heard from other so-called "experts", etc. Even some "professional" books like "Yeast" seem to miss some of the key common concerns regarding yeast. Do they deliberately avoid these issues? I can't really say. All I can say is that not every expert or even direct source has all the answers.

    Both Lallamand and Fermentis, for example, seem very vague on their instructions and avoid some of the issues, especially concerning lager yeasts. What works for ales does not necessarily work for lagers. Fermentis also has recently admitted that the instructions on their lager packages are incorrect.

    Thus, it's very hard to find definitive answers, even though almost everyone has their own opinions, based on their own experience and tastes. I personally have never relied on "faith" and now question everything. I don't even trust beer programs and do all my own calculations on every step of the process. The reason I don't trust beer programs is because of the built-in assumptions. Those assumptions drive everything, and if those assumptions aren't right, or biased in any way, the results are inevitably wrong.

    But, back to the focus of this thread, the rehydration instructions from both Lallemand and Fermentis are generic, covering the full range of their yeasts. The majority of customers are mostly interested in ales and wines. Very few are interested in making lagers (I think Lallemand only has one, or perhaps two, dried lager yeasts).Thus the built-in assumption in the instructions are primarily optimizations for those making wines or ales. Thus I constantly question how well they work, or are optimized, for the lower temperature lagers.
     
  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

  6. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    At some point, regardless of what scientific discipline you are engaged in, you have to accept something that experts say. You need to have a foundation to build upon, or else each scientist has to start from scratch. Figuring out where to draw the line, what to accept as foundational and what to question, and under what circumstances, is a huge part of academic research. (This is part of the preachy stuff that I was trying to avoid). The best you can do is decide what sources you trust and use that trust as a basis for your own investigations. The results may boost or undermine your support for those sources.

    I think the yeast manufacturers are complicit in the rehydration dilemma. They are reluctant to tell you that the best dry yeast practice may not always be the easiest dry yeast practice, probably out of fear of making their product seem anything but user friendly. As a consequence, we find easy to use instructions on the packages and different, optimal use instructions (the equivalent of read the fine print) buried on their web pages, in white papers, etc. I think they are guilty of dumbing down the product info to make the easy sale, the same way the liquid yeast manufacturers have referred to their products as "pitchable" even when they knew best practice called for a starter. (Note: To be fair, it seems that the dry yeast folks try to make their product user friendly by giving you a boatload of viable cells, instead of trying to spell out the details of hydration and pitch rate.)
     
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  7. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    And ONCE AGAIN, do you know how to read? How often do I have to repeat myself?

    Just the very post before yours I said: "I think Lallemand only has one, or perhaps two, dried lager yeasts".
     
    #87 OldBrewer, Feb 3, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
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  8. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Of course - how else do you think I could have brewed all the beers I've brewed for almost three decades? But a foundation is only that. Some of us like to go beyond that and build, by trying to improve our understanding and skills.
     
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  9. KeyWestGator

    KeyWestGator Savant (1,159) Jan 21, 2013 Florida
    Trader

    I dunno man. Earth seems pretty flat to me.
     
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  10. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    There's a club you might wanna check out.
     
  11. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    And a week or so has passed. Both the direct pitch and the rehydrated pitch finished at 1.003. The attenuation of both was 94%.Fermentis notes 82% on their pdf description of the strain. I neglected to say in the first post on experiment 2 that I conducted my mash at 148 F, which should contribute to a fermentable wort, and I did use a lb of candi syrup to make up part of the 1.056 OG, but I was caught off-guard by the low reading.

    I thought I detected a slightly solventy aroma from the direct pitch batch that was not present in the rehydrated batch. I thought I noticed it with each of the first two sips I took. However, with continued side-by-side tasting, I lost confidence in my ability to detect it.

    I am pretty displeased with the flavor. I don't think there is much if anything going on that makes you think of fermentation with a Belgian yeast strain. And there is that slight sourdough quality that turned me off of S-04. To this point and the point about the ephemeral solventy aroma, I have to confess that I have some lingering cold symptoms, so my sensory capacity is not peak.

    What do I conclude? Nothing about this experiment would dissuade me from directly pitching dry yeast, except for the fact that I have never found an entirely adequate dry yeast for a Belgian Trappist style beer. The slight solvent note that I thought I detected could be worth exploring further, maybe in the context of the previous posts that questioned whether Belgian dry yeast packets represent an overpitch, if the goal is Belgian flavor. If I ever pick up this yeast again, trying to test that idea would be the reason. I'm going to think long and hard about whether I want to package these batches according to the original plan (kegging one batch and adding bottling Brett to the other) or just dump them. Perhaps they will just require packaging and patience.

    It feels anticlimactic given all the tangential conversation.
     
  12. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Thanks for conducting those experiments and generously providing the results, pweis909! Our understanding can only grow through thoughtful experimentation.
     
  13. premierpro

    premierpro Savant (1,060) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    I doubt it. If your beer is not good it will not be the yeast pitch. Your process or grain bill would be the culprit although I doubt that you have these problems ! take care!
     
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  14. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Minor update on the results I posted earlier: I dumped both batches yesterday. I just couldn't see myself enjoying either beer, given that they still tasted like a dirt and sour dough. No longer hindered by a cold, I can say with certainty that the direct pitch batch did produce a solvent character that the rehydrated batch lacked. It made the direct pitch beer a little more unpleasant than the rehydrated batch, IMO. I think repeating the experiment would be important before attributing this flaw to improper rehydration. Not sure I want to repeat any time soon, given the results.



     
  15. premierpro

    premierpro Savant (1,060) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    Shocked to here that it was so bad! The recipe looked good enough. You never mentioned unless I am blind your fermention temp. I do not think I have used the BE-256 but feel that if Fermentis is calling this an Abbay strain then it should be good. Strange....Very strange! I'm sorry that I cannot buy into your findings on this one. Thank you for your work!
     
  16. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Temp was 64 F at pitching and 68 F was the highest I observed, but there was no direct control - ambient kitchen counter temp.

    The dirt flavor could have been the hops and not the yeast. They smelled ok, and the wort tasted ok, but maybe something about adding the dryhops early in the primary, while the fermentation was quite active...?That’s not an explanation but just a possible point of departure for when things went bad. The explanation could be that the hops were old, from the 47 hops sale. I’ve brewed wit all of them in previous batches and they were not awful, or I wouldn’t have used them. Or maybe the hops and the yeast together added up to something I perceived as dirt

    The yeast probably did produce the slight sour dough thing that I dislike. The yeast probably did produced the slight solvent character. There are people who won’t dump their beer, and I’m not one of them. Once I decide a beer is going to be a chore to drink, I stop investing time in it. Maybe many people would have tasted it and kept it.
     
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  17. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    As promised, I just heard back from a representative at Fermentis. This should be of interest - here is what he wrote:

    Thank you for contacting Fermentis. The yeast cell walls being a bi-layer of phospholipids, the warmer the rehydration/pitching media is the easiest is for the yeast to move from a folded membrane (dried yeast) to and unfolded and fully functional membrane (rehydrated yeast with an even cell membrane). See picture below.

    [Picture not included]

    We have done trial rehydrating yeast over 100°F without losses in viability. But also when you rehydrate yeast as low as 50°F the yeast will be okay, they are robust. However, it will take longer to the yeast to unfold.


    The best practice is to direct pitch in a wort at 70°F (recommended rehydration temperature for the yeast) and do a ramp down of 1°C per hour to avoid a thermic shock.
     
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  18. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Thank for posting this.
    If lagering, this would be 36 hours to get from 70F to 50F, if my math is right. Does taking this long to get there seem reasonable? Are temperature controls with a ramp function pretty common these days?
     
  19. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    My math indicates that it will only take just over 11 hours at that rate. I think if you were to just place your fermenter in the keezer set at 50 F, it would take longer than that to cool it to that temperature. However, the rate might be faster than 1 C per hour at the beginning.

    I think it is common to ramp temperatures down (e.g. going from a diacetyl rest back to lager temperature), but usually the rate is much slower than that (about 2-5 F degrees per day).
     
    #99 OldBrewer, Feb 14, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
  20. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Yep, my mistake on the math.
     
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