BrewDog Acquires Stone Berlin

It remains a world-class Helles. Matt Riggs, who used to post on here and once brewed at Faust in Miltenberg (and now runs a brewery in IL) studied brewing in Munich and it was his favorite Helles. It's a shadow here in the States but it's still excellent. Strongly disagree with you on this one, man. All I can say is that if I could brew that beer, I'd die a happy brewer

 

Spaten Optimator was my personal gateway beer for "craft" and I love it to this day, even if I can easily acknowledge that there are many better German doppelbocks.

 

But, but, but. Does every brewery have to make an IPA? Because obviously according to the other BA, it's very popular. Which in effect is saying consumers purchase it. A lot.

Of course, this goes counter to the popular narrative that adjunct beers were forced on the public by greedy brewers. Or cheap German beers where forced on Germany by greedy brewers.

The alternative, of course, is brewers actually follow what the consumers are drinking, or they end up in the dustbin of history like say, Ballantine. Brewing, after all, is a business, and you actually have to sell the beer you make, no matter how "good" it is.

If there's nothing Stone has proven in Berlin, it surely is the consumer is the boss. They make the decisions, not the brewery. The brewery can try to shape those decisions, and sometimes it works. Other times, you have to go with the flow.

 

Indeed it is. But without looking at production numbers, I'd say by this definition there are 7000 breweries in the US making better beer than Stone. And this is purely by production numbers. Seems stupid, no?

 

And neither have I. I would like to see a quote to substantiate this claim.

Exactly.

You refer to them as "mass produced German pils" but I call them Euro-lagers. I do not think that Miller Lite is a "fine Pilsner" and Warsteiner to me isn't either.

100% agree with you here!

I fully expect that they will. It seems to me that the Stone business plan of building a grandiose Berlin facility plus their construction delays means they do not have the financial wherewithal to wait this out. Hopefully BrewDog from a business perspective is different in this regard.

That is a tough question there. I would suggest that even if we had quality Belgian and German beer styles readily available there still would have been a desire/demand for beers like SNPA or New Albian Ale. The flavors of hops like Cascades (and later Simcoe, Centennial, Citra,...) are enticing and I am very happy to drink beers that feature them (as well as the Belgian Dubble that is in my primary fermenter and the Bohemian Pilsner that I am drinking now).

Cheers!

 

This is somewhat tangential, but since there are so many knowledgeable people about the German beer industry/culture, I’m going to ask anyways.

How popular/prevalent is home brewing in Germany? Is that perhaps a reason why their “craft” culture is perceived to lag behind the US?

 

It was the counterpoint of this.

It's really not fair holding you to what Greg said and/or says. When you quote him (or paraphrase him) people are going to point out the holes in his argument. Then you have to try to close the holes, which I don't feel you want to do (nor should you have to do), because it's not your argument.

 

Dave, please correct me if I am wrong but it is the German consumer who views beer as akin to bread - an everyday 'commodity' that should be available in a very economical manner. But for a German brewery to accommodate this specific demand they need to diminish the use of malt (i.e., a lower OG) and diminish the use of hops in order to produce a product to meet this price point and still stay in business. Greg Koch 'tried' to create a new paradigm here and in the context of a Stone owned Berlin brewery did not succeed. We still do not know how BrewDog will 'perform' in this context.

It would not surprise me that in another decade there is a sufficient German customer base to make BrewDog Berlin to be a successful business. Do you think differently?

Cheers!

 

I think assuming there is a generic German consumer is similar to thinking there is a generic American consumer. Obviously there are people on both sides of the spectrum regardless of continent. On either continent, it's going to be a tough go converting people that look at it as purely economical. The people on the fence, however, are fair game. Change is slow. So slow it's sometimes painful! We've lived that in the US. I don't know why we think it will be different elsewhere.

 

I prefer to not think of it as exactly like "generic" but instead of the majority of beer consumers. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the majority of beer consumers in the US (and most countries worldwide) prefer beers that are 'light' in nature: light in color, light in flavor, lighter in calories, lighter in ABV,... In the US the 'poster child' for that beer is Bud Light. In Belgium it would be Jupiler. In China it would be Snow. In the UK it would be Carling. In...

Yes, as there are craft beer drinkers in the US (a little over 10% via volume, a little over 20% by dollars spent).

Agreed. People who strongly desire cheap products do not want to spend a lot of money.

Agreed as well. IMO the issue with Stone Berlin is that their business plan (and the issue of unanticipated construction delays) did not permit them to 'luxury' of sufficient time for the market to be developed relative to the product. Hopefully BrewDog has sufficient financial resources and patience/fortitude to 'wait this out'.

Cheers!

 

I'm too tired to go thru this whole thread, but give it a read. I'm sure there are some pretty hot takes there.

 

Rereading this Bloomberg article from a couple months ago on Brewdog's Brexit fears, it really telegraphed today's announcement from their point of view. And there's just as much uncertainty now as there was when this article was published on January 24.

James Watt speaking about a potential No Deal Brexit . . .

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-24/u-k-craft-brewer-brewdog-is-dreading-brexit

 

I was actually thinking about German bread as I was reading this thread. It reminded me of a recent article in Saveur about a German (well, Franconian) Baker who is critical of German supermarket bread and German consumers who want cheap bread more than they want quality. But it is one thing for a German to say this and another for an arrogant American to say it.

“One of the few things Germans love more than their bread is paying as little for it as possible. Germans have a reputation for extreme thriftiness when it comes to food, and rock-bottom discount-grocery chains such as Aldi and Lidl have grown to dominate the German food market. (They have also aggressively exported this model around Europe and into the States. Trader Joe’s? That’s the Germans.) Because Germany’s grocery stores, discount stores, and gas stations now offer a remarkable variety of mass-produced, inexpensive loaves, German craft bakeries have declined in number, and many that remain have slashed prices by mass-producing breads with pre-mixes, preservatives, and industrial machines to save money and time. Most Aldi Süd grocery stores now feature a machine that can bake a variety of breads at the press of a button. As a result of the cultural shift, actual German bakers using traditional methods with unadulterated ingredients are becoming an endangered species.

“The Germans always talk about their wonderful German bread culture, but I cannot see it,” Erbel told me. Earlier in the day, he had picked me up at the train station, and driven past a large building and parking lot just outside the town. “You can see here the Edeka Markt,” Erbel said, indicating the local branch of one of the country’s major grocery stores. “I have never gone inside. It’s not my world.”

Gonna check out his bakery when I’m in Franconia for my beercation this summer.

 

So I think I bolded the part that HerrB had an issue with, and you seemed to sort of back track a bit in subsequent posts. I'm not sure how Spaten Premium is vastly inferior to a 'quality' German lager--maybe if you'd say what you consider a quality German Helles lager is, then maybe we'd understand.

I also disagree with your labeling it in the same class as Warsteiner. Sorry, it's not even close. I don't see how you can view a Munich Helles and a Euro/mass-produced German pils as in the same class. I take it you view most Munich Helles that way then?

Interestingly enough, this year is the 125th Anniversary of the release of Spaten Helles. In Germany, they've revamped the packaging, and it'd be fun to see it here. If anything, it wouldn't be in those green bottles.

 

@Roguer

Here is Greg's quote saying he couldn't finish a liter of Augustiner Munich or Salzburg. It's in this thread if you're interested (page 4 specifically):
https://www.beeradvocate.com/commun...-americans-to-make-a-good-german-beer.414082/

 

I always thought Germany was a bad choice for Stone to enter. I work with a lot of foreigners and it's almost impossible to change what they're accustomed too.I think the UK would have been a better choice since they like different variety's of brews. I also think his taproom in China would have been better off in japan unless he sells beer in plastic bags. I've always been a fan and wish him luck.