Clear beer, blonde ale in competition, mash temp question.

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Jos3h2r, Jun 4, 2019.

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  1. Jos3h2r

    Jos3h2r Initiate (0) Apr 7, 2015 Panama

    Ok so, after 2 batches i noticed that cold conditioning works great if you wanna get a clear beer, 1 batch was with the whirlfloc add and the other batch with whirlfloc, gelatin and cold crash before bottling. In the end, just leave the bottles 1 week in the freezer at 3°C was just enough to get a clear beer. Dont know if i should keep using the gelatin in this beer style(blondes) maybe with more hazy beer works better.
    Well this blonde turns out really clear, clean, 4.8% ABV, everything in the 18-A BJCP category. Ill update when i know if i won something or even my evaluation because a lot of you helped me to get there.
    And, what mash temp do you prefer for blonde ales? Because i tried 148°F and i was easy to drink, i decided to go with 152°F but i dont know, it definitly has more body but it feels a lot heavier, i dont know if i explain myself here, is good, taste great, not bitter, great color, but after 2 or 3, i start getting the feel like its too much for a blonde ale, like drinking a imperial stout, 1 or 2 are great but more than that you start feeling like is too much, not because is bad but is a heavy beer. More towards the belgian blonde style than the easy to drink american blonde ale style.

    Ill post a few pictures when the judges give me my evaluation.
     
    #1 Jos3h2r, Jun 4, 2019
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  2. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    Congrats on making some good beer and entering competitions . . . that's a good way to get objective feedback and make improvements.

    Targeting a specific mash temp may be putting the cart before the horse. Typically you want to determine your desired FG/ABV, then which yeast you will be using. The yeast selected will have a range of attenuation, this is where you'll determine your mash temp. Once you put all this together you compute your desired OG. Then the grain bill follows to make it all work. Keep good notes and you can dial in what you want in a beer. Some of my recipes have gone through 6+ changes before hitting the target.

    But don't be locked into BJCP styles. As head brewer you can mix/match styles and deviate from the guidelines. This might keep your brews from being competition beers but you are brewing for yourself first.
     
    #2 PortLargo, Jun 4, 2019
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  3. Jos3h2r

    Jos3h2r Initiate (0) Apr 7, 2015 Panama

    Thank you, you are right, at first i start by using what i like, then i decided to join a competition and decided to go by the book.
    Im still learning. This blonde is the 5th time that i made it and i still think i have to change stuff, the first time i used Nothingham yeast and now im using US05, i like the results with the nothingham more than with the us05, i dont know is just taste, but with the mash, i had some troubles in the past feeling the beer a bit "watery" dont know how to describe it but is like i didnt have much body and i used, carapils, wheat, etc, now i think i ended up with more than i was looking for.

    My grain bill was 80% 2 row, 10% munich, 5% caramel 10L, 5% carapils. Mashed at 152°F for 80 min and then raise to 172°F for 10min, BIAB method. I used US05 and ferment at 62-68F. Btw it feels a bit sweet.
    OG 1049 FG 1014. 4.7% ABV 20IBU.
     
    #3 Jos3h2r, Jun 4, 2019
  4. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Any particular reason for 172F? Generally, 170F is considered the highest temp one should go in a mashout: above 170F is considered to be the beginning of the "tannin extraction zone." Especially with BIAB (where consistent temp throughout the kettle is harder to maintain), I'd recommend erring on the low side. Personally, I aim for 168F (infusion).
     
    #4 VikeMan, Jun 4, 2019
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  5. Jos3h2r

    Jos3h2r Initiate (0) Apr 7, 2015 Panama

    Yeah maintaining temp is hard in BIAB, i think the 172F was my mistake, i just check the program and was 168 F. Ill follow your advice and aim for the low side next time.

    Any thoughts about the mash temp? 148 or 152? What do you think?
     
    #5 Jos3h2r, Jun 4, 2019
  6. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    The difference in attenuation for those two temps will probably be negligible.
     
    #6 VikeMan, Jun 4, 2019
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  7. wasatchback

    wasatchback Pooh-Bah (1,574) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Isn’t the whole tannin extraction thing purely pH based? Decoctions are boiled and there’s no tannin extraction. Maybe temp is a bigger factor as gravity of final runnings gets low but even then I still think as long as the pH stays in the correct zone there should be no tannin extraction issues.
     
    #7 wasatchback, Jun 4, 2019
  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    pH and temperature are both factors in tannin extraction. In a decoction, the low pH limits tannin extraction.

    The truth is that tannins are extracted in every mash. The idea is to keep them from becoming excessive.
     
    #8 VikeMan, Jun 4, 2019
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  9. Jos3h2r

    Jos3h2r Initiate (0) Apr 7, 2015 Panama

    Well, just an update. I didnt win anything in the competition, didnt get the points chart to see what went wrong with my beer, kinda sucks but well, that means i need to work harder.

    I saw the beer that won and for some reason are always the more complex beers, maybe joining a competition with a blonde ale is not such a good idea, who knows, ill keep brewing what i like, dont care if i win something or not but it feels kind of unfair, maybe my beer is not that good yet or maybe thats the way it works in small competitions. Ive been a very competitive person my whole life and losing is something that i dont enjoy, nobody does i think.

    Ill go with my next recipe, an american brown ale which is my favorite beer style and just enjoy what i do.

    Thank you all for your help as always.
     
    #9 Jos3h2r, Jun 7, 2019
  10. paulaner

    paulaner Zealot (557) Jan 10, 2004 Wisconsin

    Out of curiosity where did you get this information, reading Kunze 172F or 78C is the normal for final steps of the mash/mash-out. Also, the Brauwelt mash recommends these same temperatures.
     
    #10 paulaner, Jun 7, 2019
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  11. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    That's interesting. I haven't read Kunze, but the one Brauwelt mash article I read said 76C (i.e. 169F). I don't know where I originally read 170F. Maybe it was in "How to Brew," but it's a number that's ubiquitous... practically everyone (in the USA at least) says 170F, 168F, or 168-170F.
     
    #11 VikeMan, Jun 7, 2019
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  12. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I doubt the 170 mark is a threshold at which massive amounts are extracted, so it does not surprise me that different authors suggest a few degrees difference. Additionally, I always thought those temp guidelines related to sparging, particularly fly sparging where you would not want to continuously dilute your mash pH (i.e., raise the pH due to dilution) at these temps. You wouldn't mash out higher than these temps because you don't want your beer to at a high temp when you start diluting, and while you could sparge with colder water, you'd be losing heat, an inefficiency.

    Decoction boils supposedly do not extract masssive amounts of tannins as long as pH is appropriate. Although extraction of husk material is sometimes cited as one of the flavor impacts of decoction, it must be subtle enough that those who can detect it think it is pleasant and the many who can't detect it don't care.

    I personally wouldn't worry about the tannin possibility too much. At least until I started extracting tannins. I used to batch sparge, but now that I BIAB, I no-sparge. But yes, I always mash out at 168 (that is to say, when I mash out at all).
     
    #12 pweis909, Jun 8, 2019
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  13. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Maven (1,374) May 2, 2006 Utah

    Just to follow on to this statement. In the past I religiously mashed out (target 168 F), but at some point I decided to same some time in my brewday by forgoing the mashout (I do fly sparge). As far as I can tell, my efficiency did not take a hit, so I now just skip it altogether. Cheers!
     
    #13 utahbeerdude, Jun 10, 2019
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  14. Jos3h2r

    Jos3h2r Initiate (0) Apr 7, 2015 Panama

    https://ibb.co/C26jtSy

    Well just a picture of my last beer. It was suppose to be a blonde ale, even tho the picture lack of proper illumination, it end up darker than expected, maybe i should go with Vienna instead of Munich. Good head retention and carbonation.

    It was a little hoppy for a blonde, IBU 23. Next time ill lower the hops to get around 18 IBU. 4.8% ABV. I really like it, is the 5th time i brew this and theres definitly still room to improve, but im pretty close to a final recipe with this one. The bready, malty, caramel and some said honey taste that the beer had is good, i think i acomplish what i was looking for with the malts.

    Gonna take a brake from blondes(that sound wierd lol) and go with a brown ale next time.
     
    #14 Jos3h2r, Jun 13, 2019
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