Darkening Beers Through Extended Boiling

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by OldBrewer, Jul 20, 2019.

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  1. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    You're right. It's toasted and roasted malts that lose their diastatic power. Thus it's quite possible that PU has kilned their malt to as high as perhaps 2 or 3 Lovibond. Perhaps they kiln at about 120 F for 24 hours or higher for a shorter period.
     
    #81 OldBrewer, Jul 29, 2019
  2. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    I just saw this tweet from Dovetail Brewery. The picture lends some support to the idea that decoction can darken the wort. (Note though that the beer in the middle has 20% Vienna malt while the other two are 100% pils malt.)

    This tweet and the following one are also interesting.
     
    #82 minderbender, Jul 30, 2019
  3. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Decoctions do add some color to the wort, but as already mentioned, in my experience, it adds VERY little extra color. This was also the experience of Kai Troester, who was sort of an expert on decoction processes for homebrewing. I suppose a lot of additional color could result if some of the malt is allowed to roast on the bottom of the vessel (by not stirring constantly). I have done 40 minute decoctions and longer and noticed very little additional color than doing a 15 minute decoction.

    Try it and see if you can get it as dark as a PU.
     
    #83 OldBrewer, Jul 31, 2019
  4. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    Yeah I wonder what Dovetail is doing differently. Maybe nothing, photographs can be pretty deceptive when it comes to beer color. I just thought that at first glance it was a pretty striking difference.
     
    #84 minderbender, Jul 31, 2019
  5. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Yeah, I was impressed when I saw the photos, and wonder how they managed to get the dark color. It is possible that they just let some of the malt burn a little at the bottom of the vessel. I had some malt do that once, when I wasn't stirring too often, and the malt stuck to the bottom turned black. It took a lot of scraping to get it off later. It would be great to find out a little more about their decoction process.
     
    #85 OldBrewer, Jul 31, 2019
  6. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    #86 TheBeerery, Jul 31, 2019
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  7. OleWorm

    OleWorm Devotee (341) May 20, 2008 Illinois

    Well, I can tell you we are definitely not purposely scorching our mash. :slight_smile:

    We have a direct-fire kettle for our decoction and boil, which makes a difference for color pickup. Kettle has drag chains for mixing; and scorching is not desired. Decoctions are 15-20 minutes.

    One reason for color difference is that in the three beers pictured (I took the photo, btw), not only is there a slight difference in grist composition, but in grist weight. Decoction thickness is also proportional to color pickup.
     
    #87 OleWorm, Jul 31, 2019
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  8. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    #88 OldBrewer, Jul 31, 2019
  9. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    You drink Pilsner Urquell beers. Do they taste oxidized to you? And if the answer it yes to that question, why are you seeking to clone this beer?

    Cheers!
     
    #89 JackHorzempa, Jul 31, 2019
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  10. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Thanks for the response! I find it hard to understand how you can obtain that much color with only a 15-20 minute boil! As mentioned, I have boiled half the thick grain for up to just over 40 minutes, and the color is still far lighter than the PU.

    Perhaps TheBeerery has a point about HSA, although PU doesn't taste oxidized.
     
    #90 OldBrewer, Jul 31, 2019
  11. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    No, they don't taste oxidized to me at all. That's why I'm attempting to replicate it.
     
    #91 OldBrewer, Jul 31, 2019
  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Then I would argue that Pilsner Urquell is not oxidized.

    Cheers!
     
    #92 JackHorzempa, Jul 31, 2019
  13. OleWorm

    OleWorm Devotee (341) May 20, 2008 Illinois

    Also, if I may paraphrase Bamforth: HSA is bullsh*t.
     
    #93 OleWorm, Jul 31, 2019
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  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I fully take that you used the word "paraphrase".

    Below is a quote from Dr. Charlie Bamforth's book of ASBC Handbook Series: Practical Guides for Beer Quality - Freshness:

    "...I personally question the significance of upstream oxidation."

    Cheers!
     
    #94 JackHorzempa, Jul 31, 2019
  15. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    Obviously you folks have not kept up with current Bamforth literature, let alone other scientific literature, because those statements make you look very foolish. But I forgot, we are on a "homebrew" forum where science has no place, only dogma.
     
    #95 TheBeerery, Jul 31, 2019
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  16. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    The problem here is the association of cold side oxidation to hot side oxidation which everyone seems to be making. They have nothing in common.
     
    #96 TheBeerery, Jul 31, 2019
  17. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    It's not oxidized. Anyone can say whatever they want on the net.
    The moon landing was fake. There. See?

    Well get with the program Jack. You are looking foolish.

    Everything is oxidized and bad if you say it enough. It is true. You just don't know that PU is oxidized.

    In fact, according to some folks bottled CO2 gas contains measurable oxygen and it is therefore oxidizing beer. That's right, all those draft beers that use bottled gas. All of them, oxidized.
    Or some bull shit.

    What a fucking train wreck we have going on. Both comical and sad at the same time. But still it never ends. Just the same. Over and over and over and over....

    Cheers.
     
    #97 billandsuz, Jul 31, 2019
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  18. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    We have a real mystery:

    1. A beer that can be darkened significantly with a decoction through a 15 minute boil, but hardly darkens at all when it is boiled for 40 minutes;
    2. A beer that can be darkened through HSA but does not taste oxidized;
    3. A light Pilsner malt that possibly has a Lovibond of about 5.

    We are far from an answer to my original post, and have now seen arguments both for and against just about every possibility.
    (BTW I have not heard back from the Pilsner Urquell email I sent regarding this issue.)
     
    #98 OldBrewer, Jul 31, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
  19. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    If you are so angry, there is a unfollow button you can click. However, your charlatan answers always do make me chuckle, so I will miss that.
     
    #99 TheBeerery, Jul 31, 2019
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  20. OleWorm

    OleWorm Devotee (341) May 20, 2008 Illinois

    Fair enough, my response about HSA was about the discussion of flavor perception, not color perception.
     
    #100 OleWorm, Jul 31, 2019
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