Poll: Stouts or Porters?

That’s part of why the lines get blurred. Stouts don’t have to have a high percentage of roasted malts or barley, but it is accepted, whereas a porter is usually more malted barley, chocolate and black malts, and the more American robust porters have some roasted unmalted barley, but less than a typical stout might have. The styles are open to interpretation and I’m not one to try and stunt creativity, and I’m open to enjoying all styles, but we should recognize a difference. Saying porters and stouts are the same isn’t true in today’s world. Yes they overlap, but there are some distinct differences, despite sub-styles like imperial porter, robust porter, oatmeal stout, etc. Some people could check here for more info on the styles, from both England and US brewers.

https://www.bjcp.org/docs/2015_Guidelines_Beer.pdf

 

Black IPA or Hoppy Porter/Stout? You be the judge.

 

Brewers/Brewery Owners will label beers in a manner such that they think it will optimize sales. Using accurate terminology is all too often a lesser concern.

Cheers!

 

First, I'm pretty sure that @bulletrain76 has many years of familiarity with the BJCP, among other professional beer judging organizations.

Second, your BJCP reference does not support your position, because no where does BJCP define just "stout" or just "porter" as standalone styles. The BJCP style guidelines defines many sub-styles of porters/stouts, which is to @bulletrain76's point...

 

It was just a reference that I thought beer advocates might respect. They divide the styles by region, and I was going back to the old English days and up to now. Back in the day a stout might’ve meant a strong porter, but after the legalization and widespread use of roasted barley and various malts, after black malts had already been put to use, the stout and porter made a divergence to the point where porter nearly disappeared until the craft beer revolution in the 70’s, because people preferred stout, which is why Guinness changed their porter name and kept the stout labels. In fact, way at the beginning it looks like on BA and multiple other sources that original porter wasn’t even a dark beer as we know it today, it was a blend of new ale, old ale and mild ale, usually darker and brown but not roasted at all. It puts the evolution of styles a little in perspective. Everything changes over time, but I don’t think we should start calling porters and stouts the same. Stouts might be porters, but a porter isn’t always a stout, depending on your opinion I guess. I like to believe there are some facts though...

 

It's kind of compare tea and apple.

 

I was wondering the same damn thing!
Since the line between Stout and Porter is blurry at best.

 

There are people who work very hard trying to sort out the more factual information (or at least as close as one can realistically get) from the less factual stories that persist through unchecked replication. Regarding such folks and "the old English days," here's a broad-stroke quote from Ron Pattinson: "Historically, the difference was very simple: [...] In all respects other than strength, porter and stout were identical." Below is another example regarding porter and the "three threads" blend you're referencing:
http://zythophile.co.uk/2015/06/05/the-three-threads-mystery-and-the-birth-of-porter-the-answer-is/

What sources are you using that suggest that the Free Mash Tun Act caused the ingredients used for porter and stout to diverge from each other? I would think that the near disappearance of porter (and preference to stout) in that time period was more due to the dropping strengths across the board as a result of the world wars.

 

Interesting read. Going back that far in time is usually difficult to conclude with multiple sources, in any topic. I’ve never heard of the three threads until I looked up the English Porter style on here. It may or may not have led to the porter. I could also just see porter as an improved darker/brown beer for the time. How do we tell what the truth is?

I meant the styles of stout and porter diverged, after the use of unmalted barley due to yes the taxes on malt and higher alcohol, also making the “stout” under 5% abv, making porter even lower abv, leading to a preference for the stout. I was thinking that it did eventually lead to the widespread usage of unmalted barley in stouts as part of the style. Porters were still known more for the pale malt base, and in England the use of brown malts, along with the newly invented black patent malted barley to color it darker, before the use of roasted unmalted barley. In today’s styles, English and American porters mention little to no use of roasted barley, as opposed to stouts which tend to have more roasted unmalted barley.

 

I'm super glad that sierra nevada is still making their black IPA. They call it "Stout: West Coast Style", I guess to throw the hounds off the trail? In any case, I call it deeeeeelish

 

The use of unmalted roast barley is a red herring. It became legal with the Free Mash Tun act but many breweries regarded it as inferior to roasted malt. Guinness refused to use it until 1930.
The difference between Stout and Porter was always just a matter of strength, and after WW1 when strength was reduced the names became interchangeable. In fact many beers were sold under both labels.
A problem is that much of what is written about beer is folklore and not properly researched. The. BJCP is not immune from this. Writers such as Patto1ro above actually go through tens of thousands of actual brewery records and know what they are talking about.
Whether a beer is a Stout or a Porter depends entirely on what the brewer decides to call it.

 

Depends on the stout or porter I'm having. Overall, I would go with porter. To me it feels a more subtle style than stout, which is more nuanced. Yes there is a difference. No I will not explain it to you. That is probably splitting hairs but I don't give a crap. This is my opinion.

 

Well, presumably, being a marketing tool is the only thing a beer style name is supposed to be.

You seem to be suggesting that brewers lie about what style they are selling? In your experience do they lie about porters and call them stouts? Or do they more often lie by calling stouts porters? Or do they scrap both names and use some other more marketable term for them?

 

As if most Black IPAs were as good as the original west coast stouts (SN, Deschutes, Pike, etc)...

 

The stuff about roasted barley was made up by the BJCP and is total nonsense, historically. Guinness used roasted barley in both its Porter and its Stout. And before 1880 roast barley was illegal in british brewing. So for the first 175 years Porter and Stout were around it wasn't an option.

In London, where the styles originated, brewers used exactly the same grist for their Porter and Stout. As they parti-gyled them together, they didn't really have any option. The difference bewteen Porter and Stout in London? The amount of water used.

 

I think you'll find that the BJCP has dropped Robust Porter. Good thing, too, as it was a ridiculous made up style.

I've look at the brewing records of a few London Porter breweries spanning 1802 to 1974. There was never any difference in the malts used in their Porter and Stout.

 

Beer styles are used for beer competitions such as the GABF which utilizes the Brewers Association style guidelines.

Cheers!

 

Not to mention that there's more than books in that "big pile of _____".

 

True that. Kinda seems (in hindsight) like the black IPA was a last gasp of the classic west coast stouts as the american idea of stout became some double digit abv behemoth that required barrels and a pantry full of flavors.
Maybe they should bring them back as American Adjunct (sorry I just love rye in my stouts and ipas) Imperial Porters?

 

Heh...

If we ever get back to the point of most beer geeks ordering pitchers instead of tasting glasses there just might be a resurgence .