Poll: Stouts or Porters?

Haha wow I hadn't even thought of that. Do breweries even do pitchers anymore?
Oh how far we have fallen.

Of course, anymore a pitcher at most breweries would be like 40$ so it's not surprising they fell out of.favor

 

I was very pleased to be sharing pitchers of smoked lager and honey saisons at Green Bench in Tampa last year.

They also still might be a thing in the pnw.

 

Just to make it clear, the BJCP is not the original source of the use of roasted barley being in stouts. I actually read it in just about every single article and reference source, including the styles here on Beer advocate. The BJCP link is simply a guide to differentiate some of the styles based on descriptions and further explanations. It is not the know all be all guide to beer. Do we have that? I thought BA would be more accurate, but you guys are saying what’s written about English Porter here is false. That’s a shame. Who knows what to believe.

The use of roasted barley in stouts is a modern day distinction. Obviously before roasted barley was used, it wasn’t in stouts. You’re talking about a specific time in history, but it is always changing, always moving and evolving. At one point yes the porter and stout were the same grist, with the stout being thicker and stronger from a higher gravity and less water use. But after some time the use of roasted barley set in, and the non use and more traditional “brown beer” style was brewed as the porter, less dark and roasted. Over time the stouts and porters separated and became more distinct. That main key distinction today is the usual use of roasted barley in a stout, and porters remaining a little less dark, with more pale and crystal or brown malts, and black or chocolate, but not usually unmalted roasted barley. Since the English and Irish porters were around before the use of roasted barley, the traditional way to make those porters would exclude it. Irish porters also excluded brown malt, since that was traditionally English, right?

The ‘robust porter’ is a style on this website. While maybe not an official style, it is a sub-style used by a lot of American brewers to denote a porter that may be a little more dark and roasted than the old English less roasty beer. By tradition, even English stouts aren’t very dark and roasted. The American and Imperial Stout is where you see the real difference between an old English Porter.

 

You provide very little as far as citations to support your claims. It's also interesting that after one of the few supporting citations you provide, the BJCP guidelines, is challenged you quickly back-track and caveat it with "...it's not the know all be all guide to beer..."

So, if you know all this stuff better your citations, I guess that means you are the know all be all guide to beer. Right?

Quite.

However, a good place to start would be to listen to a world-respected historian of beer (@patto1ro) who has written over 20 books on beer, and even one book specifically about porters and stouts:

"Porter and Stout: the full story. The history of Porter from its early days in London, through its spread across Britain and Ireland, all told through contemporary texts, brewing records and statistics, lots and lots of statistics. Plus dozens of historical Porter and Stout recipes."

 

I actually didn’t even look at the BJCP link before trying to give a decent link for some of you wondering about the difference between porters and stouts, English and American, to maybe check out. I thought a beer judging competition’s style guidelines would be a more credible source than a random article of some nerds blog that I don’t know. I simply googled the difference between porter and stout, found about 10 different links talking about the main differences if any, reading about the history, etc. A few had common themes, some of them were outliers, some said there was no difference, most said roasted barley was the difference, some said strength was the only difference (but how do you explain imperial porters and Baltic porters higher abv than low abv stouts?). It’s obviously a hot topic that excites people and incurs a good debate. I’m certainly not the best guide to beer, just somebody willing to learn about it who’s passionate and interested in it. I know not every source is credible. I’m wondering what makes you guys think your links and your certain historians are the ones that know the truth and other stories are made up. I’ll try to check out the book, $10 isn’t bad. There is plenty of free information on the web though, but I know you all don’t trust that...

 

People are mainly pointing to one historian, Ron Pattinson, because he literally wrote.the book on this subject and evidences his claim by looking at actual brewery records throughout history that indicate that the only historical distinguishing feature was abv and that all subsequent distinctions are arbitrary and made at the brewers discretion.

Also you have failed to provide any sources other than beer judging guidelines that are modern and seem widely regarded as made up after the fact rather than derived from any particular brewing tradition

In my personal experience, if I see porter on a label I expect a thinner bodied beer with less bitterness. When I see stout I expect a fuller bodied beer with more bitterness. Of course, in modern US crafty beer parlance "stout" is likely to indicate something near the consistency of chocolate syrup and just as sweet

 

Ron Pattinson is indeed a smart chap and his writings are worthwhile reads. Having stated that is should be noted that America has a long, and separate, history with Porter.

For example, George Washington was a fan of the Philadelphia Porter brewed by Robert Hare.

The American breweries would utilize adjuncts in addition to malt to brew their Porter beers. From my readings molasses was particularly a favorite ingredient for brewing Porters in America.

“One difference in American brewing procedures from the outset was the use of adjuncts. Because of the unreliability of grain crop harvests and frequent failures, brewers at the time had to rely on corn, molasses, pumpkins, peas, and squash in addition to malt. The use of adjuncts would have a profound effect on porter production in America for more than two centuries.”

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/american_porters

One of the first brands of beer brewed by Yuengling in 1829 (called Eagle Brewing back then) was a Porter.



Cheers!

 

Well you just said it at the end there. There is a difference. And it’s funny that beer judges, the brewers association, the beer forum we are on, and almost all other credible beer sources say there is a difference between stouts and porters. Historically it might’ve just been alcohol strength, now it is more than that, and the abv doesn’t even matter in certain sub-styles. We are living in today, the here and now, not the past.

 

This sounds like a job for BLIND TASTE MAN!

Seriously, back in the early Micro Days my home-brew friends always said SN's Porter was really a Stout, and their Stout was a Porter. I don't know how they could really differentiate, and it was impossible in a blind tasting.

 

I disagree with this statement.

As I stated in post #7: “…whether a commercial brewery chooses to label their beer as a Stout vs. Porter is a marketing decision. In today's beer world Stout and Porter are the same.”

Yes, there were times in the past where there were differences between a Stout and Porter (e.g., beer alcohol strength).

Cheers!

 

It’s possible for a brewery to label a dark ale with a large roasted barley/malt percentage a porter, but does that make them right? (why we have robust porter actually) In that case, why call any beer any style? You could call an IPA a porter too, but that’s not right. Creativity and exceptions can be taken into account, but we have styles for a reason, to be separated. Porters originated from low strength brown beers, stouts and imperial stouts originated from stronger dark beers and more roasty beers in America.

 

UK brewers used flaked corn and oats in their porters/stouts too, but unlike American brewers, they were only able to do so after 1880.

 

I would suggest that is a minor, modern usage.

Beer style names are a tool for consumers to know what it is brewers are putting into their glasses. This is the overwhelming usage, the historical usage, the only practical use of beer style names, and the origin of the idea of standardising beer style names in some way. If there is misuse or misunderstanding of the brewers' intentions when they use style names in their original, proper usage, it is homebrewers and their little competitions that are the offenders.

 

Bwah!

My group said that they should both be porters because the stout didn't use black barley and it was hoppy.

Me, I think SN had it right all along.

 

Well, not "minor" for me.

Agreed. Maybe I am a "modern" kind of guy!?!

Cheers!

 

Porter was the beginning of my journey into beer history, The reason I started was the conflicting stories I read in different books.

When I discovered that an incredible amount of the brewing records of the classic London Porter breweries had been preserved, I spent crazy amounts of time photographing and transcribing them into spreadsheets. My information comes from primary sources.

Baltic Porters? They're using Porter as a generic term for Brown Beer. Look at Danish Porter labels . Many also use the terms "Imperial Stout" or even "Stowt". The Calsberg version was even named DBS originally: Double Brown Stout.

Not trying to be a dick, but I really know more about this topic than anyone else. Other than maybe Martyn Cornell.

 

The stout has roasted barley and the porter doesn’t, so they did get it right.

 

Some BA's believe that brewers can label/brand their beers anyway they want.

Perhaps you could start a new thread with a poll on this topic.

Cheers!

 

Bu... but... home brewers know everything, and the beer world revolves around their "knowledge".

Haha JK, thanks for bringing the facts and logic to this argument. Again. Cheers, Ron!

 

Well you can do anything. The problem is if you label your IPA a porter, or your porter a stout, or your stout a sour ale, when it gets consumed and reviewed online people won’t be saying it’s a good beer for the style.