German / Imported Märzens

Yeah, at 14.1% plato and 6.3% abv its modern influences are clearly visible in it's abv. However, it's nice to see them use 100% Munich malt. That's the kind of approach I like to see with these kinds of beers. Clearly no caramel malt is needed for color with a grist like that. That beer looks pretty brown to me, as have the beer's I've brewed using Munich malt, and Bavarian bottom fermented beer was collectively known as braunbier, or "brown beer" back in the early to mid 1800s.

Though with Sedlmayr supposedly bringing with him English malting/kilning technology to Bavaria around the 1830s, most likely the Märzenbier of Bavaria anno 1810 would have been using malt dried in smoke kilns akin to Schlenkerla's Märzen, but without the roasted malt of that beer the color would have been less dark (and more brown instead). With the advent of farbmalz ("color malt"), or roasted malt (which I suspect was influenced by English patent black malt, references to it start to emerge by the mid 1800s), the beer could be made to look pitch black if the brewer wanted, similar to porter.

As a sidenote I recall reading years ago that that beer is also dry hopped, there's no mention of it on the beer's product page currently however.

 

I went to the local monopoly store today and picked up some more Oktoberfest beers, Hofbräu and Paulaner. I was pleased to see that a new batch has arrived of each. The julian date on the Paulaner indicates a bottling date of August 25th whereas the Hofbräu was likely bottled around August 21. The first batch started selling on September 1st and already we have a new batch on the shelf, that's impressive to me. Props to the importers I say.

 

@draheim

Almost forgot about this, and I actually found my little notebook from March of 2004.

3 Floyds Darklord Russian Imperial Stout. 13% ABV from bartop pin.
Malt, molasses, vinegar(!), turpentine(?) nose.

Flavor of caramel, toffee, hop flavors, coffee, raspberries, hops in finish.

Feel of sticky, unfermented malts and full-bodied.

Guess it was turpentine, not creosote.

 

I've never had that beer. After that description, now I know I don't even want to try it.

 

Don't forget, that was 16 years ago!

 

Still, that sounds about right

 

No doubt the ratings for Dark Lord are currently very good, and your comments seem to be saying the beer has changed over time for the better.

It's the few complainers who don't like the beer who write the reviews that I seem to read about in the forums, and their comments tend to mimic your 2004 description.

You're agreeing for 16 years ago, or for nowadays? Or both?

 

As I said in my review (mine was from 2013, not 2004), “Never again.” So I tried Dark Lord once and have never tasted or sought it out again. Once bitten, twice shy.



Also, keep in mind that the reviews even back then were good for Dark Lord, which was why I made the effort to trade for it. I attribute many of the good ratings going back many years to hype and/or people having no idea what good beer actually tastes like. But Dark Lord was garbage.

 

Concerning the hopping of the old Bavarian Sommer/Märzen/Lagerbier I thought I would reference the anno 1836 "probesude" (trial brews) carried out at Hofbräuhaus in Munich. Hofbräu being the government owned brewery helped set the price for the sommerbier in the coming season based on the price for malt and hops. The brews took place on February 22nd, 25th and 26th. The fermentation lasted for 9 days. The beer was sold in June (so the beer had been lagered/stored for most of March, April and May and an unknown lenght of June).

The three lagerbier/sommerbier brews were brewed with 45, 50 and 55 pfund hops respectively. The finished lager beer, sold in June, amounted to 74 eimer per sud/brew (one eimer being 68 liters, so 74 times 68 = 5032 liters, divided by 100= 50.32 hektoliters, HL). For one of the lagerbiersude/lager beer brews 45 pfund = 25200 grams of hops were used (one Bavarian pfund weighing 560 gram). For the second sud 50 pfund = 28000 grams of hops were used. For the third lagerbiersud 55 pfund =30800 grams of hops were used. Dividing the hops per HL gives us these numbers:

1. 500 gram per HL
2. 556 gram per HL
3. 612 gram per HL

So between around 500-600 gram hops per HL and between 3-4 months of storage for Sommerbier/Märzenbier sold in June (typically the brewery summer beer cellars were divided between beer that was to be sold early in the selling season, May-June, the middle of the selling season, July-August and late in the season, September-October, with the hopping rate increasing relative to the storage time so that beer intended for sale in September-October might use around 700 grams of hops per HL, needing to keep the longest). Bavarian lager beer/summer beer typically used hops of the latest harvest in contrast with the winter beer which typically used hops of the previous harvest at lower amounts (the Hofbräu schenkbier/winterbiersud/brew of 1836 used 378 gram of hops per HL).

For comparison we might look at turn of the century material:





As per Thausing Bavarian beer used between 200-300 gram per HL of hops. As per Braungart around 230-333 gram per HL of hops were used in Munich specifically. Note the upper hopping rate for Bohemian beer at 450-550 gram of hops per HL at 13.5% plato.

As per a Morebeer article (no longer online) Pilsner Urquell used:

"Saaz hops: Pilsner Urquell boils the wort for two hours and uses three additions of whole Saaz hops at a rate of 350 g/hL to bring the IBU level to 40 (18)."

Personally I suspect that the IBU level of Bavarian lager beers anno 1800-1850s (brewed between December-April, sold between May First-Late October) were at least around 40-60 IBUs (combined with a significant residual extract, see today's Schlenkerla Märzen at 13.5% and 5.1% abv). With the winterbier providing a less bitter, sweeter beer the rest of the year. The advances in cellar technology in the latter half of the 1800s reduced the need for hops as a preservative, allowing the hopping to be dictated by popular taste instead, and turning Bavarian beer overall, lager beer as well as winter beer, into a more uniform beer, resulting in the sweet and low bitterness beer it became known as by the late 1800s compared with the Vienna and Bohemian lager at that time (with the Bohemian lager overtaking the role of the old Bavarian lager beer, albeit at a lower starting gravity, lighter colored, and being more attenuated). If Bohemian lager at 12% plato and 400-500 gram of hops per HL lagered for months on end became world renowned as a strongly bitter beer by the late 1800s I see no reason why the 500-700 gram of hops per HL Bavarian beer of the early to mid 1800s wouldn't have been strongly bitter as well back in the day (early to mid 1800s).

 

I went to my local liquor store and asked about whether they had any German Oktoberfests coming in. He said they’re only coming in next week.

What is with DC distro???

 

No, not really -- just meant that a myriad of things could have changed in almost 2 decades; from recipe to palate.

But as @draheim says, I never had any desire to try the Dark Lord again after that tasting. Lots of good Imperial Stouts out there that I didn't have to choke down.

 

Canned, same as yours.

I think I have a pic I can dig up. Curious when I had it too, maybe you had a different batch than me?

 

How did a thread about German / Imported Märzens turn into a discussion about an Indiana Imperial stout?

 

Comparisons. At least it didn't become a really off topic discussion about something like Lederhosen.

You know?

 

Well the brewery is located in Munster. Isn't that German enough?

Okay, back to topic now.

 

Take a trip to total wine. There are plenty of them in northern va i have found just about all the german oktoberfest except ayinger.

 

Not possible, I’m a student without a car.

 

That's OK for Herman, but what about Grandpa and Lily? Transylvania's in Romania... (or, maybe, North Carolina...)

 

Okay, how did a thread about Märzen go to Imperial Stout then to bad 60s sitcoms?

 

Seems like a logical progression to me!