Controversial Beer Opinions (Round Two)

I very much agree with this point. The bigger regional (Edit: and national, and import) breweries brew better lagers and at a better price. Win win easy decision, no arguments here. I don’t think you’ll get much disagreement on this one.

 

I'll take that challenge. It's hard to resist when you put it that way @jonphisher

Ingredient costs will factor in when deciding on a price of a product (and production time too), but demand and economies of scale play a really big role. Consumers want to pay less for lagers because we've been conditioned to behave that way. Multinational brewing conglomerates have specialized in selling inexpensive lagers in bulk, while small craft brewers have specialized in selling one-off expensive ales. Craft brewers weren't just avoiding lagers to differentiate their portfolio from bigger brewers, they were also doing so because they needed to create a different business model for their size. They couldn't beat the big guys on price so they didn't jump in their pool... and fortunately for them they didn't like the look of that water anyway.

Things are muddier than just that of course... and one example of that is the scenario described above - Brewers who specialize in IPAs releasing expensive 16oz 4 packs of lager. Are these beers worth it? That depends on the drinker and brewer. It also depends on perceived value. To blanketly say that it isn't worth it is to succumb to the idea that lagers have less value than ales. That's clearly problematic or an artificial construction.

I understand the marketplace realities that would make someone on this site OK with paying big bucks for a "hazy" IPA and not a lager based on the alternative options for that buyer. Having said that, the overall business realities for a brewer will not change when they switch between ale and lager (I'm thinking in terms of employees, insurance, rent, utilities, etc.) but one business reality that potentially changes is how much value their audience puts in their product... how much they are willing to pay.

So, should we assign lesser value to the lager? Or perhaps we want to push the narrative that an ale has greater range for becoming an "artisinal" product than a lager.

I know in my case I'm not interested in doing either, but I'm focused on whether or not I simply like the beer (just as the two of you probably do as well). On a personal level, am I OK with paying $4 for a can of Helles from a US craft brewer? It depends on the producer. In some cases yes, but 99% of the time I'd rather buy Hofbrau. At the same time, I'd pay $4 for a can for Schlenkerla Helles though. And also at the same time, I'd rather buy Torpedo than 99% of the $4 cans of IPA out there... so there just isn't a difference in that regard for me.

 

I tend to see it from the opposing vantage point, however: the trendy places are overvalued and overpriced to begin with.

I do think that the Schlenkerla cans are a good value at $14/ 4 pack, but that's at the higher end on one hand and they are a well established quantity on the other.

Other quality lager 4 packs tend to be in the $10-12 range. So I do think that there is a certain amount of trading on one's fashionable name going on, regardless of style, when they get to be $16 upwards- or, as I tend to call it, the trendy surcharge is included.

 

The lager pricing issue is similar to the one faced by brewers trying to put out table beers, grissette, and other low abv styles. Brewers like Fonta Flora, Jester King, Keeping Together and others have established a value for their brands (a premium) and have kept that premium pricing even on beers with sub 4% abv.

I've heard push back and complaints on this site and in real life when it comes to low alcohol beers that aren't equivalently reduced in price (I think this came up around the release of Light Hearted even). I think that a lot of brand pricing comes down to the particular price segment the brand is trying to compete in.

Lagers perceived value has suffered in the states because for decades the majority of lagers were brewed by brands competing in the lowest price brackets. There is a reason that AB and the like have chosen to purchase brands that are established in order to compete at more premium prices. Its very hard for a "value" brand to convince anyone to buy a "premium" product from them.

Likewise, breweries that have established themselves as premium priced brands would damage the perceived value of their premium brands by releasing lower priced brands. Its obviously a spectrum and brewers use all kinds of other signals to distinguish certain brands within their portfolio

 

This is absolutely correct. Before the restaurant I worked at closed, I tried to make 750ml "table beer" and "mix ferms" a thing through pricing and mildly poetic language (but not too much because people don't read). No one bit aside from industry and occasional wine geeks. However when I got over myself and put up brews with an abv >7% things moved drastically faster... Like noticeably. Folks don't see the value in session unless they are familiar with it (don't have Guinness wont try czech dark), and this affirms my anecdotal experience at most beer festivals. "If I'm going to try it, might as well get drunk faster."

I also totally agree with your thoughts on lager and value. We as advocates need to actually push to re-capture the term Lager, but it's especially difficult because the way you consume a half liter is very similar to the way you drink a Bud Light bottle. Even those folks who have traveled to Europe and say positively "why aren't American beers like this" revert back to the BMC selections. It seems the flavor value provided by a fantastic lager is negligible compared to the atmosphere.

Pricing is a mess... just a mess. But it is a huge barrier average people need to get over. A good beer will cost you at least $8 on draft in most metro areas, end of story.

 

Schneider is definitely available in North Carolina. Whoever carries Aventinus likely also carries Schneider. Bestway, Whole Foods?

 

I was there yesterday, I’ll have to take a look, I usually don’t get back to that rack. I was surprised, Bestway was stocked up on Heist, no RC that I saw, bought some wine and an 11 day old Maine Lunch, tons of Edmunds Oast, forgot to check on the Jacks Abby. How about some Dinner here, and Bestway is back and strong.

 

Here’s one to get some controversy, Tree House may be making some of the best Traditional German Style Lagers in New England. Well my sample size is small,just their Pilsner and a Helles, but I’d stack them up to equal or better than the other ones that are highly recommend by the top German lager makers in the US, most of which I’ve had. May just be personal tastes, who knows.

 

OK, I will be 'that guy'.

What other New England breweries that produce high quality lagers have you had beers from? Notch, Schilling, Oxbow,...?

Cheers!

 

OEC from Connecticut has very pleasantly surprised me lately as well. Maybe now that B United is distributing more of their stuff you'll start to see them mentioned also.

 

There's one bar here that I know of that sometimes has OEC products on draft. The only one I've had the chance to try was their Brunneis Peat Smoked Flanders Oud Bruin, and it was incredible. I would love to see more of their stuff make it to this side of the state.

 

You got me drooling over here now, lol!

 

One trend that has happened while I've been benched I can't wait to give a try out.

 

Sorry for the delayed response (been crushed at work), so I haven’t had any beers from those 3 brewers, but I have had several Lagers from Suarez, Jacks Abbey, and vast majority of the brewers from Vermont. Almost all seem to make very high end lagers, I just knew I’d ruffle some feathers when claiming that Tree House (already has enough hype) is jumping into the lager game and nailing it. I honestly really liked both lagers I had from them. Did some back reading on earlier posts and saw the discussion about lager pricing and agree, 6 packs for $9-$12 for Von Trappe & Jack’s Abbey would get most of my dollars if I was in that market over the $12-$15 4 pack/16oz can lagers from other places.

 

When you get a chance to try the lagers from those three breweries I would be interested in hearing you thoughts. You may change your mind concerning Tree House and "best Traditional German Style Lagers in New England".

On a related note a brewery very local to me is Tired Hands and while they are renowned for the Juicy/Hazy IPAs (including Milkshake IPAs) they also brew very high quality lagers (e.g., Helles, Pilsners of various brands, Schwarzbier, etc.). Quality breweries can indeed produce quality beers of various styles.

Cheers!

 

I meant to point out in my above post that Suarez is a New York brewery; it is not in New England.

If in the future you are ever in the area of Livingston, NY and the brewery is open I would encourage you to visit. I enjoyed my visit to the brewery last year:



https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/new-beer-sunday-week-783.634783/#post-6811792

Cheers!

 

Those are sexy pours. I've only ever had a couple Suarez beers and enjoyed them both. There are so many good breweries in NY to visit...

 

@bubseymour

Steal this beer podcast episode 255 marlowe ales brewer brought on Trail (Tree House Pilsner) on. If you're not familiar they drink blind out of black glass and just talk about the beer and what it does, neat show but sometime gets old. Anyway they all had the same reaction to Trail: it reminded them of Genny cream ale, sweet/minerally as in it coats your mouth so doesn't run off clean, augie "someone put IPA salts in a lager" (nailed it)...15 minute mark of episode 255. It's fun to hear them dissect sometimes hyped beers into just beer. I suggest you give it a listen its actually pretty entertaining to here where and how they end up where they do describing this one.

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/steal-this-beer/e/67898586

 

Yes, and the mid-Hudson Valley has a wealth of riches in this regard. The only brewery that I have visited is Suarez and hopefully someday I will be able to visit others.

Two summers ago two friends of mine (Harry & Marilyn) spent 4-5 days in that area and I gave them a list of breweries to visit based upon my readings of BA posts (and other). As a thank you they were kind enough to bring me a tasty beer from Yard Owl:



https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/new-beer-sunday-week-765.625205/#post-6667175

Cheers!

@cavedave

 

This person knows what he is talking about.

Is there some law that requires all IPAs have Sabro in them now or something? It’s ubiquity is making me sick. I’m a half step away from converting to macro seltzer.