The difference between Pale Ale and IPA

I am somewhat reticent to step into these shark infested waters but...

You replied to the verbiage of "IPA was originally sessionable". In post #259 I expressed my view as regards "sessionable". Now IPA beers, which were not specifically referred to as India Pale Ale at their time of origination (late 1700's to early 1800's) would have indeed been Ales brewed with hops. At that specific timeframe the meaning of the word "ale" had changed to mean a malt beverage which was brewed using hops.

The dynamics of history compounded by the evolution of the meanings of words can indeed be a confusing thing.

A situation of 'follow the bouncing ball'!?!



Cheers!

 

Herein lies the problem with your logic. I am agreeing with you that nomenclature evolves over time. The rapid and radical change of definition in regards to what we agree a beer style is is not evolution of language. You may think I am wrong, but I would put money down saying you would be upset if you purchased a beer labeled as a pale ale only to find the contents of the can to be a kolsch.

 

I say again...

 

Ok, I'll bite.

I would say beer definitions have changed very rapidly. And it is not radical. On the one hand, beer definitions are relatively stable and shouldn't be manipulated, this just is not true.

On the other hand, beer definitions are very new, my lifetime. Here are a few reasons

Kolsch.
Nobody is suggesting a Kolsch is or could be packaged as a Pale Ale. At least not currently. And it is a poor example anyway because Kolsch is defined as beer from Cologne. So if it is from Cologne it is a Kolsch. Only recently has Kolsch been defined as what you and I would recognize as Kolsch. Cologne legally defined Kolsch in 1986. Because... words change in meaning. The City actually passed a law the legally defines Kolsch*. In other words, laws can be rather permanent. But words are funny in that the meaning will change no matter how much anyone protests. Cologne made a legal definition for Kolsch because they knew the meaning would change in time.

Beer Styles.
Michael Jackson popularized the idea of beer styles and is responsible for a lot, maybe most, of our understanding of beer styles. Many of his terms were entirely made up, his own creation. Others were his observations of beer made at the moment he was completing his research. This was in the mid 70s.

Most now look to the BJCP for standard beer style references. The "standards" have been refined continually, with new styles added as needed. To their credit they do not claim to be the last word, only a useful source to avoid confusion.
BJCP was formed in 1985.


But if there is an issue with a Stout being in a category all by itself, apart from lagers and ales, because a long time ago that is how things were, then we need to just say our language evolves.

Cheers

*You and I, or anyone else not subject to the laws of Cologne or Germany really don't have to follow this law if we don't want to.

 

Marketing-driven forced change has resulted in several beer terms becoming close to meaningless in the American craft beer arena. This is not due to natural evolution of the language nor does it contribute to understanding.

 

If the influence of commercial concerns on word meaning doesn't count as "natural evolution of language" then what does?

 

Wow! Time to make some .

I am awaiting the discussion that the word "semantics" doesn't mean what you think it means.

Cheers!

 

Kolsch is pale in color and fermented with an ale yeast. A brewery could easily market one as a pale ale as defined by a very loose interpretation of pale ale. Tradition means nothing in the world of language manipulation. Here I am talking with the guy who was arguing against historical accuracy in beer nomenclature on the last page who is now suddenly arguing for kolsch to remain historically accurate. This is fun.
BJCP gives style distinctions, but does not rename entire styles for the sake of marketing. I keep pointing to pale ale and session ipa specifically. I have yet to see anyone argue against my initial argument that session ipa is branding and not a naturally evolved style or style descriptor. And neither have you.

 

The "to go" verbs adopting the meaning of the "to say" verbs is a natural (although stupid) evolution.

Having the term IPA apply to any beer the marketing wizards desire regardless of ABV, color, clarity, brewing process, attenuation, perceived bitterness, etc. is not.

 

I did

I dunno, we describe a dramatic social circumstance as a "soap opera" as a result of marketing but that doesn't mean that the terminology isnt natural language evolution. Marketing is a human activity that involves the use of language, the fact that it is a source of language drift doesn't make that drift synthetic.

I'm personally in the camp of advocating for better adherence to traditional meanings for words so that our communication can be more effective. I don't like the fact that "IPA" more often than not means a soft, sweet beer that has more in common with tropical fruit juice than what I believe to be a "true" IPA (which is of course much different than what someone like @marquis views as a "true" IPA). I just threatened divine judgement on anyone who "misuses" the word adjunct.

But I've also resigned myself to the reality that language changes, often quickly, and that the ultimate authority of "correct" usage is a plurality of speakers. I don't want to end up like my freshman English teacher, furiously burning through red pens as she corrected "wanna"s and " gotta"s out of the writing of a bunch of teenagers who, two decades later, definitely still say "wanna" and "gotta".

 

No. Not really. Not at all in fact.
I am not in any way advocating that the Kolsch of 1950 needs to be the Kolsch of 2021. Nothing of the sort.

I am arguing that language evolves. Beer evolves too of course but we are talking language here.

And more importantly nobody, not one culture, not the English for example get to stick a flag in the sand and say that their definition is the correct definition. Stout, Ale, Beer etc. And even still, their definitions have changed in time as well! /it's simply ridiculous.

I think we disagree on the time and means that definitions have changed.

Be it rapid or too slow to notice, from natural evolution or as a result of marketing, who cares?

Let me ask you, do you have an opinion on when and how beer definitions may evolve? How the language of beer is allowed to change or how it is not supposed to change. Is their some sort of litmus test? Because that is the debate really. It is going to happen.

Cheers.

 

Evolution of language happens. From my perspective the session ipa was not evolution at all. The term session ipa was not a slow natural progression into a new style of beer. After beers like zombie dust opened pale ale into the world of hopping levels seen in the American ipa, which is an evolution of the pale ale style, the term session ipa was quickly embraced to describe beers that fit neatly into the BJCP style guidelines for American pale ale. It's not a new style of beer. Its merely an attempt to market the beer to people who seek out the letters IPA on anything. The same thing happened with American stout. It's now a Canadian dark ale or black ipa. On a side note I have never tried a session ipa based on the silliness of the name. We have come to ipa from the pale ale. We have come to understand that the ipa is a stronger beer than the pale ale. If it's a weak ipa, it's a pale ale. Session ipa is very much like saying session doppelbock when referring to a regular bock. Silly. Just silly.

 

As an aside, the original IPAS were of session strength at the time, being generally the weakest beer in the brewer's range.
For over a century IPA remained at the bottom of ABV range (one of the biggest selling cask ales these days is Greene King IPA at 3.6%ABV)

 

I think your auto correct gotcha!

 

India Pale Ales are Pale Ales.

 

Cascadia is part Canadia.

 

They carry an appellation naming Banff.

 

The Canadian ones aren't.

 

They certainly are, back to the India part probably helps sales. You know if Bestway has Hopslam yet?

 

Thank you very much for that. Reading that genuinely makes a difference in my brittle mind.

I remember all the way back in the distant year of 2015 and hearing Ken Grossman state that he brewed ales, stouts and lagers... but I had a hard time totally understanding him since he was speaking in a Shakespearean sonnet rhyme scheme.


Just throwing that out there for a little fun and nothing more. Cheers to you too man. Enjoy the weekend.