Founders Ultimate Oktoberfest BBA Marzen

“We taste tested every local light roast we could get our hands on. 16 of them poured for us were black. One local roaster used it as the base for a Caramel Macchiato which they made for us.

Guess which one won?”

We live in a copy cat world in craft beer. Success breeds more of that style.

How many more regular imperial stouts without adjuncts could you find 10 years ago compared to now? They’ve been usurped by pastry stouts.

Do I think that’ll happen in this case with the Oktoberfest style? Nah, but in some cases it can matter.

 

I think it's more about having a useful guide for curious consumers. Comparing a beer like this to conventional marzen would be like comparing a BA stout to porters. If we go around saying "BA Expedition is the best porter." Then what does "porter" mean?

Breweries are going to market however they see fit, but sources like ba or Untappd exist to make it easier to find good beer. Sticking a bba strong lager into the list of marzens doesn't further that goal.

 

You’re making an imaginary comparison. We don’t call BA Expedition a Porter because it’s not marketed as such, it’s not labeled as such, it’s not brewed as such, it’s not known as such. If Bells had started off from the beginning calling it a barrel aged Porter, it’s unlikely you’d have much to say about it.

 

If Bell's called it a porter I would have to ask, "what do we call the porters that aren't 10%+ abv and don't taste like liquor? Is there a list of popular examples of those?"

Looking at the list that was in the article that @ESHBG posted, if the bourbon barrel aged double strength beer is the "best" marzen does that mean all the other breweries are brewing them wrong? Do the Germans not know how to make a "great" marzen because they aren't making them strong enough and aren't sticking them in a liquor barrel?

 

RIP Ken Ober

 

I don’t read into it quite that much and instead take it for exactly what it is. That this group of people liked this beer more than the others they tried at this particular time. Maybe next year their tastes are different next year or even by the end of the season? Just because I like one beer over another doesn’t mean anyone is doing anything “wrong”. Just that my tastes are different. Again, I don’t think that because a few people don’t like a beer that it means a new style should be created for it. Cheers.

 

That’s what I figured. I was more unsure of what was considered the “early beginnings” of a fest that’s been taking place for over 200 years. 60 years might be pushing it, me thinks.

 

I don't want to speak for @unlikelyspiderperson but I don't think he's suggesting a new style be created.

Simply that this beer shouldn't be lumped into the Märzen category here on Beeradvocate. Just like how Bitburger "Festbier" was moved from the pale Oktoberfest category on here into the amber. Because it's clearly not a pale Oktoberfest.

I've been on this site since 2004. I've seen numerous highly rated styles on here become national trends.

Westvleteren 12 (and beers of its ilk) that were high ABV kicked off a trend of higher ABVs in craft beer. Heady Topper kicked off the New England IPA trend, and then Tree House launched it into the stratosphere.

These sites do have some influence, especially Untappd in 2022.

 

This sounds like it should be a thing, autumn doppelbock. I'd buy the crap out of this. I assume abv was around 6? Maybe pushing 7? Sounds like I should get back into homebrewing...

 

Capital has called it a doppelbock for a long time (at least 15+ years) although I'm not sure if they started out calling it that or not.

It's still being produced, and it's on the stronger end--7.8%

https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/368/991/

https://www.capitalbrewery.com/portfolio-item/autumnal-fire/

 

I'm not suggesting there needs to be a new category for this beer. It easily fits with the euro strong lager or malt liquor categories. It just doesnt fit in the marzen category because it uses different techniques to achieve a totally different end product.

There's nothing wrong with this beer, it sounds interesting in its own way and I have great faith in Founder's ability to produce tasty and unique barrel aged beers. It's just that comparing it against a style like marzen, which has a long history and fairly established parameters, is just an exercise in subjective preference. Objectively, this beer has to be a "bad" marzen. It misses some key parameters and has prominent flavors that aren't a part of the style. But people mostly don't rate to style, they rate based on their subjective experience, so to make useful groupings for consumers to look at when trying to find a beer they might like you have to put like with like regardless of the way the brewery chooses to market a particular beer.

It doesn't affect me because I'm an over educated consumer who can read all the cues on this bottle that tell me "this is not a marzen and I shouldn't expect a marzen". But for a more typical consumer, including this beer on a list of marzen just makes the style confusing.

 

Seems like a lot of debate on this topic. The first thing that jumps out about that list is how much foreign ownership is on it (and I don't mean imports... of which there were only two!). 5 out of 17 were AB InBev beers. If you exclude the imports and the brewers with partial/total foreign ownership, holding company ownership, and AAL flagships, there's only 4 brewers left standing. I am not pointing this out to invalidate their list, I am just making an observation. I let the language in the article guide my reactions... and any published tasting article that includes the comment "I taste nothing" guides my reaction immediately.

They didn't include any information on how they acquired their beers, or how large their servings were, or if their tastings were blind. Did the 5 tasters split one bottle of the Founders beer or one 4 pack? If they did this tasting over a single day, then it's obviously the latter. That would make a big difference to me if doing something like this. Personally, I found the Founders beer got tiring over the course of the entire 12oz bottle. I suspect this tasting wasn't done blind based on the comment for the Narragansett beer. 4 out of the 5 tasters claimed it was like "what you would drink at a frat party.” I don't think there's any way that would have happened in the company of the other beers if they didn't know the brand.

The thing that is humorous about Founders being their favorite and the topic of style is that the beers that got the worst ratings were the ones that they thought were not to style. They even claimed that they "had to dock [a beer] a few points for not being very true to style" while beers that ranked higher "earned points for being true to the style." Their number 2 beer was a "perfect, classic example of the style" but the Founders beer was "overwhelmingly" the favorite. I think rating to style is largely ridiculous, but their dropping of the through line in their own article is funny.

I know my post is a longer response than an article that calls a beer "meh" deserves. That's on me. As a group, score makers on BA have always rated beers the same way as these article tasters. The Founders beer currently being the #3 Märzen on BA is simply how stuff on here works. If Founders releases a vanilla and coffee version next year, it will rank even higher as long as there are enough people using the site. You can relocate the beer to a different category that's already on BA but you won't significantly dent the culture by doing so... and the creation, marketing and reception of this beer is a matter of culture. I believe the broader culture could have been impacted if BA adopted the philosophy that all beers marketed as "barrel aged" belonged in their own category rather than the so-called "base beer" categories... but that ship has sailed. It's funny that nobody seems to be bothered (or even recognize) that the #1 Märzen on BA is a 4.6% ABV Austrian Märzen. Not much influence happening there.

 

Ha, while I thought the same thing, that beer isn't nationally distributed in the US. You can't even find it in the US. Hard to have an influence when nobody can taste it.

Now if that Austrian beer was number one overall on the site (like Westvleteren 12 was), then people may seek it out, and it would MAYBE have some influence.

 

Smartmouth Brewing released Imperial Princess this past weekend, an 8ABV BB Oktoberfest, and I vastly prefer it. It is both more bourbon-y and Oktoberfest-y, at least to my palate. Or it could be woohoo-homer brewery.

 

All the bourbon barrel aged Marzens in the world don't bother me. Brewers saying "imperial Marzen" or "imperial Gose" bother me. Such folks wouldn't even begin to understand why a German brewer would release a "Märzen Gose." Yeah, I realize how silly I look. @steveh

 

Back to that top 17 article - I opened a Flying Dog Dogtoberfest today, so I looked at the article again since I remember it being one of the featured beers. They stated:

And here's the brewer's description of the beer:

It's amazing that the tasters managed to plagiarize their reactions so well.

 

It's delicious. Don't care if it isn't really a Marzen due to the bourbon barrel aging.

 

So…what type of vessel is everyone drinking this beer out of? Mug or stein? Snifter or tulip? What’s the most appropriate glass for a bba imperial marzen?

 

Shaker.

 

Schooner.