Molecular Engineering of Yeast

Discussion in 'Beer News' started by pattermj, Jul 11, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. pattermj

    pattermj Initiate (0) May 31, 2008 Virginia

    So just read this article and while the scientific description and term of synthetic yeast is inaccurate the idea I find interesting.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...ast-could-make-beer-cheaper-and-stronger.html

    I actually brought the idea up at the VIP forum talk at NOTB 2 years ago and was pretty much shot down by one of the head brewers, I think from Lost Abbey. His claim was that brewing is an art and will stay as one. Which I find funny as a grad student working towards a molecular biology/virology degree as history has had many industries where the old timers stick with the mystical ideal of creation and art while newbies sometimes enter the field with radical ideas which can greatly improve and in time take over an industry. I really wonder if the same will occur with the craft beer industry (a combination of DIY Biology and beer)?
    I think molecular biology has a lot to offer considering how important yeast is to a beer. I have considered what could be accomplished with a yeast that has specific promoters which only activate at a specific alcohol content. This story goes on the idea of a stronger beer, which honestly can and has been selected for, using the same techniques that breeding horses and dogs accomplished 1000 years ago. I think sequencing and lentiviral insertions can do so much more but I rarely read about such ideas. Sadly I know it is not a career choice of mine, but I would love it as a side product.

    Any other biology grad students who believe that science may be the future of beer?
     
  2. chocosushi

    chocosushi Initiate (0) May 1, 2011 Oklahoma

    Is this nothing more than Genetically Modified Organisms
    on a microflora scale?? If so, I'll pass & stick w/ the
    yeasts available on hand.
    If not please indulge me.
     
  3. pattermj

    pattermj Initiate (0) May 31, 2008 Virginia

    Yes in theory this would be a GMO, as it would modify the genome of the organism to suit our needs. But this also accounts for horses, dogs, humans, corn, wheat, yea pretty much everything humans have domesticated or forced to change once in contact with us since we start thinking as a species. While some fear GMO crops as they introduce resistance or growth genes (mainly from other plants anyways), I think yeast could actually be studied and modified from other, known, yeast genomes. Say a combination of Lacto and a specific Sacc which has a promoter based upon a specific environment change. It is a GMO, but it is all yeast. The idea of fearing GMOs just because they use science if foolish.

    But again my point is, if we can identify the genetic link to specific flavors, alcohol percents, carbonation levels, even bottle conditioning effects, think about the impact and cost savings.
     
    balto22, Peter_Wolfe and Jules11788 like this.
  4. KS1297

    KS1297 Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2013 Wisconsin

    people always think their own field of study is so important.

    but ya, it does sound interesting.
     
  5. PaulQuinn

    PaulQuinn Initiate (0) May 27, 2011 Canada (BC)

    If it improves beers taste and shelf life and/or decreases prices and off-flavors it can come fast enough? Imagine a 2 years old IPA as fresh as a new one. Or fast aging mechanism that gives us a 10 years old lambic in just 6 months. Don't know if that's possible, but sounds fantastic.
     
  6. BEERMILER12

    BEERMILER12 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,725) Sep 11, 2010 Maine
    Pooh-Bah

    I completely get where you're going with your post. The article, OTOH, is specifically pointing towards making a yeast that is readily available and isn't as affected by alcohol in order to make stronger and cheaper beer. I wouldn't mind if it was purely experimenting with yeast in order to figure out the genetic links you pointed to, but I really don't think that is the main point. Unfortunately, I really don't see the upside to this sort of thing (and trust me, I have my degree in Chemistry and am more interested in BioChem than most) and see it as more of a waste than anything beneficial to brewing and beer in general. We can already make beer that is upward of 20% (or more, if you include Utopias) and there is no real point of profitability unless it is extremely cheap (I would imagine still in the $10-$30 range based on the breweries who would actually use the yeast), which in all honesty wouldn't attract much more of an audience than it already does (i.e. craft geeks/beer enthusiasts/what-have-you). We already have distilled beverages that have an alcohol content that is higher than any yeast will ever be able to create. Alcoholics flock to those cheaper options ($8 5th's of vodka, for example). I just don't see the point of GMO's in beer production, at least in the context of this article.
     
  7. jtmartino

    jtmartino Initiate (0) Dec 11, 2010 California


    You don't have to be a biology grad student to believe that science may be the future of beer. But I think the implications of creating the first eukaryotic genome "from scratch" may go far beyond making are more robust and alcohol-tolerant strain of beer yeast.

    And people that fear "GMO" science are usually ignorant to the process or results. Anytime you cross breed anything, which is what we see every year with new hop strains, you are creating a GMO product. People should stop fearing what they don't know simply because the media has a tendency to promote fear-mongering.
     
  8. jtmartino

    jtmartino Initiate (0) Dec 11, 2010 California


    Reduced yeast waste? Increased attenuation? Lower pitching rates yielding the same results? Fewer stress-induced byproducts? Ale yeast that are able to ferment at lower temperatures?

    There are a tremendous number of "upsides" to this sort of thing.
     
    westcoastbeerlvr likes this.
  9. moshea

    moshea Initiate (0) Jul 16, 2007 Michigan

  10. WeaponTheyFear

    WeaponTheyFear Initiate (0) Mar 9, 2008 Connecticut

    I've never worked at a brewery but as a homebrewer I would say yeast is the least expensive ingredient. Not to mention breweries typically use the same yeast for multiple batches, I can't imagine this actually making beer any cheaper.
     
  11. 77black_ships

    77black_ships Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2012 Belgium

    I for one find this news extremely exciting. Growth & cultivation of yeast is quite difficult and expensive – few American craft breweries actually have their own unique yeast strains. Synthetic yeast could open the pathways to yeast with unique properties, higher levels of success, higher quality standards, more unique yeast strains in the market, possibility to brew beers to unfathomably high levels of alcohol,…. etc. Synthetic yeast could just be the most revolutionary & exiting thing to happen in brewing in the last 100 years since the discovery of yeast. The potentials of synthetic yeast are nearly unfathomable. Thanks for sharing this news.
     
  12. moshea

    moshea Initiate (0) Jul 16, 2007 Michigan

    It is exciting, but this is the line form the aricle that gave me pause

    "There are also fears that synthetic life forms could escape into the wild and spread uncontrollably."

    What affect, if any, could synthetic yeast have in the wild?
     
  13. 77black_ships

    77black_ships Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2012 Belgium


    The exaggerated fear probably relates more other potential synthetic life forms that they intend to create with this project not synthetic yeast. What a synthetic yeast could do depends on what kind of yeast you have here – most yeasts devised with brewing in mind wouldn’t really be doing much. Might triumph in survival over other yeast in more extreme conditions but I devise the effect being unimportant unless if anyone has a better insight. It is not going to endanger the survival of other yeast probably. Does depends what the synthetic yeast is engineered to do or behave like.
     
  14. CASK1

    CASK1 Pundit (951) Jan 7, 2010 Florida

    As a cell biologist I also find this very interesting. However yeasts contributions to beer flavor and aroma are so complex, I feel that whatever genetic manipulations could be accomplished won't really help a brewer. I see a lot of potential for the bio-fuels and other industries, however.
     
  15. pattermj

    pattermj Initiate (0) May 31, 2008 Virginia

    I am really disliking the term synthetic here, but that may be due to my field. I would count this as modified as to me synthetic describes a completely designed organism, which as others have mentioned, yeast is a very complex organism. They are not looking to build it from scratch (at least I suspect they are not) but looking to modify small sections. I count cDNA and recombinant viruses as true synthetics which were are not at with yeast.

    On the note of biofuels, yes I could definitely see potential, but yeast is still not that sturdy of a host, I would prefer to see the ethanol production in a sturdier bacteria which can handle harsher conditions/crappy sugars. I really dislike the idea of growing corn/grains just for biofuels as it really isn't the future we need, there is already so much waste foods/sugar we can utilize, why over farm group/slash and burn new ground to make corn just to make biofuel?.

    Finally again on the fears of GMOs, yes these organisms are normally designed to be more resistant, but so are many other bred organisms. I don't see the hate occurring about afranized bees (bred as GMOs) other than the normal fear response. Or some of the invading ants which are now displacing fireants in TX. I want to see some continent wide marches against these GMOs and the known danger they are, but instead people just see them as bred organisms instead of GMOs. While I do disagree with a number of Monsantos practices, their products have been proven safe and are help feeding millions. I think the case which ended up making the SC was a stupid one to bring as I knew Mansanto would win, I really wish some of the wind blown/destruction lawsuit cases had made it instead but now I doubt they will.
     
    Etan likes this.
  16. 1up

    1up Initiate (0) Mar 5, 2013 District of Columbia

    Can I hire you for a brewery job?
     
  17. chocosushi

    chocosushi Initiate (0) May 1, 2011 Oklahoma

    Thanks for the info,
    this actually all seems really interesting.

    I do not fear GMO's due to science, I
    just hate when the purpose of engineering a certain
    GMO is to increase profit margins without nutritional benefit (Soy,Corn,etc.)

    but, yeah,
    I'll get down on a Lacto-Sacc :slight_smile:
     
  18. pattermj

    pattermj Initiate (0) May 31, 2008 Virginia

    Sorry, still finishing grad school (done with both degrees in 6 months I hope) and then looking at Government/CDC and maybe industry if I end up in the Seattle area. Really looking forward to getting the free time and money to start homebrewing again, then maybe see what I can do with some of my science background and DIY kits in combination with brewing. I brought up at NOTB the idea of small grants/fellowships for grad students with an interest in brewing and molecular science/yeast but again it just wasn't received. I know other consumable industries (fast food, wine, liquor) have done fellowships/university collaborations in the past. I would love as a hobby to combine these two interests of mine, but sadly I love certain aspects of my field too much to leave :slight_smile:.

    And as an edit for my previous post, it should be 'are helping to feed millions.'
     
  19. emannths

    emannths Initiate (0) Sep 21, 2007 Massachusetts

    It think before we get to synthetic yeast we need a better understanding of the metabolic pathways of existing yeast. Coaxing yeast into producing desirable flavors without producing undesirable ones still seems to be more art than science. Likewise, a better understanding of the perception of these flavors at various concentrations is needed.

    When it comes to ease-of-use characteristics, I think brewers happened upon directed evolution as a good solution. Want yeast that does well in stressful environments? Make a stressful environment, grow the yeast, and propagate the ones that survive. Want a high-floccing yeast? Pick the yeast out of the bottom of the fermentor.
     
  20. pattermj

    pattermj Initiate (0) May 31, 2008 Virginia


    Completely agree on the first sentence, reason I dislike synthetic as a term. Just as many researchers are studying the genetic factors of attenuation or pathogenesis or virulence, I think yeast needs to be studied for the genetic factors of flavors and metabolics. Means identifying specific genes or segments, modifying them, brewing up beer and performing tests (mass spec, GC, tasting). Seems like a thesis project which may actually encourage mouth pipetting:slight_smile:. Second sentence to me just shows we need more science on the subject. By claiming something is an art just means we haven't taken the time to truly understand the development process.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.