Why can't most American breweries master Belgian styles?

I say you have to credit the Belgians. You also have to consider Americans can't always be the best at something. You could have asked why no other American brewery can't seem to nail a DIPA quite like Heady Topper (as an example, I've actually never tried it). You may consider that the Alchemist is the best at brewing a DIPA. In the case of a Quad, you might just have to credit the dudes at Westvleteren or Rochefort.

I think I've tried some pretty good american belgian style quads. 3 philosophers, the reverend come to mind. Le fin du monde is a pretty good triple, I think. Are they the best? No, but also Avery's IPA is not the best out there, and yet I've got nothing against it.

 

They have not mastered American styles anymore than American does Belgian

 

I like most Belgian styles for yeastiness and malt handling. Spices and bitters tend to be an afterthought until you try something that's gone terribly wrong (e.g., Long Trail Belgian White). There have been some decent Tripels and a few Quads that may actually surpass the originals (still don't understand why LaTrappe is at the top of the Quad list). But when it comes to less boozy styles that require more balance of flavors, American breweries do fail. Blondes and Wits, in particular, have been pretty bad. Even Allaghash White is nothing like the original style--it's like comparing oaky California Chardonnay with a traditional French one (except in reverse--we get the steely one, while "they" get the yeast monsters). And AW is the good one--Long Trail, Harpoon, many others tried and failed (Harpoon is so weak it barely gets off the ground; Long Trail has more coriander than an Indian curry; Cisco is overwhelmingly citrus, but, at least, it's drinkable). Doubles are hit and miss. There have been a few that were spot on, but the reason for the lack of decent doubles is because everyone goes for high ABV and ignores the flavor at lower ABV levels. Everyone wants to sell the next boozy bottle of beer as if it's wine. (Given that I prefer to use Dubbels and Tripels as dinner "wines", that's not necessarily a bad thing). Or worse--they spike it with hops that clash badly with other flavors. So it takes a few breweries that are dedicated to the styles to get things done right--Ommegang and Unibroue for sure, but Allagash has done quite a few good ones, New Belgium is perfectly capable of getting things right (when they want to, which is not always). Victory Golden Monkey is a perfectly serviceable Tripel. But people who make mostly stouts and IPAs should lay off Belgian yeast if they don't know what they have.

 

Because in Belgium they make 5-10 styles,some places make 1-2. They have been doing it for centuries. They have mastered it. In Europe brewing is a trade and you choose to do it and are trained accordingly. In America anyone can get a job at a brewery,it isn't considered a career,it's just a cool thing to do for many. There are very few people working at American breweries who will work in a brewery for 40-50 years. Combine that with the sheer number of breweries in America and how many of these breweries want to make as many different beers as they possibly can with really no regard for doing it WELL and you get shitty beer. How many breweries make 4-10 really great beers,and just stick with those trying to perfect them everyday? 20? 30? Simple answer? Americans are to lazy to put in the time,energy,a nd passion to make beers that need a lot of finesse. It's so much easier to make overly hopped,unbalanced ipa's.

 

Another point. How many of you have gone to Belgium to taste the beers there? I have not and I would think most of you have not either. So that leaves the beers imported by the distributors. As said above I'm sure there are plenty of authentic Belgian beers that are sub par. Think the distributor is going to put it in their line up? We get the cherry picked stuff that is guaranteed to sell and have a following. Anything less would be stupid as a business practice. How big is Belgium? Could you cover a huge amount of area and offerings in say a month if you were dead set on choosing the best from the region to import? Now how long would it take to go to the 50? or so Breweries in the US that have committed to nothing but Belgian beers? What about the rest? Cost is a huge issue. The Belgians distributed from US breweries nationwide are considered "good" as I've read above. But how many breweries are producing to the point of distribution? How many specialize in Belgians? How many of those can you get? The sample keeps getting smaller and smaller. Of the imported Belgian beers you drink the sample size is a much larger proportion of what is considered quality. In the US it's much smaller. If there was what was considered a quality US made Belgian beer in Iowa. Would you make the trip to try it? How much would that cost? Now does the amount of effort you put into trying that beer color your opinion. Do you want it to be great because what it cost you to obtain it? Or even more subversive, do you kill it despite what it took to obtain it just to look like a truly objective hardcore connoisseur?

 

I have been to Belgium many times. As to the size, it is a small country, about the size of Maryland. You can drive across most of it in a little over 3 hours.

I used to make beer runs from my place in Germany in the company car, burning the company gas, so not too much was invested but time. It was worth it. Loved those beers as a change of pace.

Edit - there were beers I would always buy, and some I would pass up after they were tried.

 

Add Oakham to that.

 

Completely agree. Pushing the envelope or re imagining a style is no excuse for inferior beer.

 

Well, I've been to Belgium. And I also spent a year in the Netherlands drinking Belgian beer. And I would say that you're wrong on almost all counts above. There are not as many breweries as you might imagine--in some ways, Belgians are traditionalists. Almost three quarters of Belgian beer production is for export and more than half of that goes to France. We don't get all the best stuff by a long shot and actually have a few stinkers imported because they are price efficient (you can sell almost anything in the US if you market it right--just look at the 64 calorie "beers"). So 1) our available list is not as cherry-picked as you might think, 2) we actually never see some of the best stuff and 3) distributors can get away with a lot of stupid shit because of some really arcane state laws regarding distribution (and kickbacks to enterprising legislators who help to keep them in place). I might agree with one thing--there are likely more US- and Canada-brewed beers that are labeled "Belgian style" (or just "Belgian") than there are actual Belgian beers that are imported in the US. That's not the problem--given any style, you expect a large share of stinkers. But, it seems, here we're talking about mediocre versions from otherwise top breweries, who generally know what they are doing. And it's not a question of disagreement over tastes--the issue is their inability to either reproduce the traditional styles or improve on them (as some have done with the sours). That's a failure, not a base-rate error.

 

While Belgians are unique...they're probably over-romanticised and not extremely sessionable, with a few notable exceptions...probably why Saisons have gained more traction in the US, relative to others.

 

Let's talk about it after you've had a few of them...

Of course, an 11.4% Quad is not likely to be sessionable. Nor is Avery's Maharaja or Mephisopheles or Tweak or Beast, but I don't hear anyone complaining...

 

I'm reminded of something an Austrian chef I used to work for once told me:
"You Americans think that every restaurant in France has a Michelin star. Well, there are a lot of shit places too."

Just like there are a lot of mediocre IPAs being made here, I'm sure that there are a lot of mediocre dubbels, tripels, what have you being made over there.

 

Funny you should mention France--they are trying to pass a law requiring restaurants to not only make their own food but to stop using pre-frozen portions, which many French restaurants were caught doing recently. But let me pose it a little differently--you're looking at Belgian brewing through American perspective. They simply don't have as many breweries as you think. Besides, the number of shit breweries has nothing to do with the classic Belgian styles--the shit breweries make something else... probably the fake German beers.

 

Why can't Belgian breweries master American styles?

 

That or Belgium is just like any other country where people just drink BMC-style products much like USA. It is a country not a museum for beer geeks.

 

I'm reading this thread as i drink an Big Sky Brush Tail saison and can't agree more...

 

I think a lot of people are over-simplifying the issue trying to find the "silver bullet" that prevents American beers from matching up. I offer the following rambling analogy.

There is a truly excellent French bakery near my place. I've been to Paris, and this bakery can actually compare favorably with what I ate over there. As you might expect, the owners lived in France, learned from French cooks, studied French recipes, and presumably even learned the "French way" of doing things. You might think it's no surprise that they are able to recreate French cuisine over here.

But the owners actually took the time and expense to ship this enormous old-school brick oven all the way from France to the US when they moved here. You can see the oven in plain view behind the counter when you go in. Now after all that training why would something as simple as an oven be critical? Surely any modern industrial oven should be able to do just as well if not better.

It's obvious though that if you really want exact reproduction, you have to reproduce everything; the methods, the recipes, the ingredients, and the equipment. It's not enough to know what you're doing, you need to recreate as much as possible the conditions that you trained in.

Think about in practical terms how difficult it actually is to recreate their oven. How much does it waver in temperature over time, how much humidity does it maintain, how evenly is the temperature distributed, what air currents are present, etc. Yes it's just an oven, but to study and recreate it would be a serious engineering challenge and not cheap at all. It's no wonder they just shipped the whole thing over instead.

Brewing is even more sensitive to these details because yeast is a living creature that responds to very subtle environmental and process changes. I don't know of any American brewer that has actually tried to recreate a Belgian brewery to such a precise degree. So it's really not surprising that the American attempts don't generally measure up.

My guess is that one day American breweries will nail the Belgian style, but they won't accomplish it by trying to copy Belgian breweries. They'll figure it out through trial and error on American equipment with American techniques instead and come up with an American way to brew Belgian beers. Unfortunately, trial and error takes time.

 

Isn't Stella from Belgium?

 

Yes. ABInbev. Large industrial brewery in Lueven.

 

I like your argument very well thought out and I agree. Still I do not think MOST American brewers feel a need to recreate these styles. The problem is American is a BIG place. Some brewers I bet here may have made a great clone.
I bet though many just do not want to clone, they want to create new stuff.

Let take lambics, some American brewers make some outstanding wild ales, but lambics they will never bee, because as you said, yeast and of course what's in the air. they cannot bring over the air, lol.

If they had a contest that a brewer though was worth his time to clone a Orval, I bet someone could come really close. I know I keep trying at home myself. Sadly its just not that practical. most average folks that go to micros just do not like Belgian yeast....or whatever it is they dislike.

Then it all come down to a standard in the style to judge against, then I guess its the blind tasting argument time.
Everyone is different, I happen to think Dupont Saison is the style definer, but others do not. speaking of bias, on this site we have an American one do we not???